[Politics] Brexit

[Green Cross Code Man]

Think you might be interpreting that to suit your own viewpoint. Those who did not vote to leave have in the main been advocating negotiations to ensure the least damaging outcome for the UK. The Brexitiers seem to believe that our economy actually will get £350 million per week back into its coffers, that may be possible, if we want to commit economic suicide.

So will those who voted to leave be happy paying for access to the single market?

Your post is presumptuous and full of supposition. I am talking about these pages on this forum where a few weeks ago loads of posts from remain followers were angry that things weren't happening quickly enough. The government didn't have a plan etc.

As for branding all of the leave voters as people who believed the 350 million NHS story, well that's stretching the imagination a little.

I would say that the realisation that is dawning, is the idea in the remain camp's mind, that Brexit is going to happen. Remainers have contented themselves in the last six months with shock, disbelief, outcry, anger and an ability to fantasise that it won't really occur. The scare stories pre referendum didn't work, and neither will the panic and froth from remainers at this stage. No amount of gnashing of the teeth or hand wringing from people who love being part of the club will detract from the fact that most leavers, for a variety of reasons, want as little to do with the failing organisation of the EU.

 

[larus]

Think you might be interpreting that to suit your own viewpoint. Those who did not vote to leave have in the main been advocating negotiations to ensure the least damaging outcome for the UK. The Brexitiers seem to believe that our economy actually will get £350 million per week back into its coffers, that may be possible, if we want to commit economic suicide.

So will those who voted to leave be happy paying for access to the single market?

I think the problem is that most of those who voted Leave were aware that it was a leap into the unknown as the result would only be achieved by negotiations. It's the Remainers who have been saying things like "where's the plan, shambles, etc.".

The reality is, we have no frigging idea of the outcome as there are 2 sides (and 1 side has 27 different participants), so how can there possibly be a statement as "this is what Leave will mean" when we don't know what the rest of the EU will agree to.

Most Leavers (IMO) believed the £350m statement as much as the WW3, £30bln emergency budget, house price collpase etc.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Yeah i guess so. After all, that single market has works SOOOOO well for Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy and France. Oh sorry, inconveninet facts like that don't really help the argument.

The EU is inward not outward looking. It's all about protectionism and rules. The rest of the world is powering forward, yet the EU is stuck in the past thinking that the West has some god-given right to all the 'benefits' without the hard-work. Those days of cheap foreign labour supplying cheap products to the West are drawing to a close, as they aspire to the Western levels of wealth, yet the West seems to think it can still have 35 hour weeks and all the other social benefits. The problem with that is it makes the West uncompetitve, hence the protectionism.

You're going to have to add a bit of detail here I'm afraid.

Rest of the world is powering forward...in what way is the rest of the world ahead of the EU?
Benefits without hard work? What benefits and what hard work?
Trading blocks are protectionist by their very definition. Can you explain why you think differently ?
And what alternative are you suggesting to "35 hour weeks and all the other social benefits"?

 

[wellquickwoody]

Your post is presumptuous and full of supposition. I am talking about these pages on this forum where a few weeks ago loads of posts from remain followers were angry that things weren't happening quickly enough. The government didn't have a plan etc.

As for branding all of the leave voters as people who believed the 350 million NHS story, well that's stretching the imagination a little.

I would say that the realisation that is dawning, is the idea in the remain camp's mind, that Brexit is going to happen. Remainers have contented themselves in the last six months with shock, disbelief, outcry, anger and an ability to fantasise that it won't really occur. The scare stories pre referendum didn't work, and neither will the panic and froth from remainers at this stage. No amount of gnashing of the teeth or hand wringing from people who love being part of the club will detract from the fact that most leavers, for a variety of reasons, want as little to do with the failing organisation of the EU.

So, from your post I deduce that you have not got a worthwhile opinion on how to manage our exit from the EU to minimise any problems, but you are quite happy to continually rub salt in the wounds of those with differing opinions to your own. You will also continue to deride, insult and belittle those you consider to have the temerity to not fall into line with your victorious, jingoistic ego.

Stereotypes exist for a reason you know.

 

[wellquickwoody]

I think the problem is that most of those who voted Leave were aware that it was a leap into the unknown as the result would only be achieved by negotiations. It's the Remainers who have been saying things like "where's the plan, shambles, etc.".

The reality is, we have no frigging idea of the outcome as there are 2 sides (and 1 side has 27 different participants), so how can there possibly be a statement as "this is what Leave will mean" when we don't know what the rest of the EU will agree to.

Most Leavers (IMO) believed the £350m statement as much as the WW3, £30bln emergency budget, house price collpase etc.

I quite liked your post until the last line. The leavers who made a decision based upon their own research have my respect, most didn't and bought the headlines.

 

[Mayonaise]

David Davis said that the UK would be " Willing to pay for access to European markets " ... marvellous, so we still have to pay for the access we had before but with no bargaining power or benefits from the EU ...

The arguing goes on and on and so have had enough of the rights and wrongs because we must now make the best of what will be...

What I don't understand now though, when we are about to kick this off in 2017 and begin 'negotiating the best deal for Britain', why would our chief negotiator show his hand so openly in advance?

Am I missing something?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

So, from your post I deduce that you have not got a worthwhile opinion on how to manage our exit from the EU to minimise any problems, but you are quite happy to continually rub salt in the wounds of those with differing opinions to your own. You will also continue to deride, insult and belittle those you consider to have the temerity to not fall into line with your victorious, jingoistic ego.

Stereotypes exist for a reason you know.

Er, I was stereotyping in response to your stereotype of Brexit voters believing the ridiculous claim about the NHS. I have many times complained that the campaign was awful and divisive from both sides and I hate the way the NHS and the queue of immigrants was used. But that does not detract from my answer.

Of course many remain voters are very reasonable and have accepted the result. But this referendum has led, I believe, to the biggest moan our country has ever witnessed. I am genuinely sorry for you, and other remain voters who have felt hurt by the process and I understand some feel a sense of loss. I hope that in time those feelings will heal. Of course that depends upon how successful the politicians are which remains to be seen.

As for my own opinion, I am neither qualified, nor do I have the inclination to suggest a way forward. I knew what I was voting for, but there was never a way put forward as the referendum was not fought on party political lines. I agree that this could be construed as a weakness, but we are stuck with it.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I quite liked your post until the last line. The leavers who made a decision based upon their own research have my respect, most didn't and bought the headlines.

As did many who voted remain. Politics is full of people who haven't a clue. Some of them are even in parliament.

 

[GT49er]

I quite liked your post until the last line. The leavers who made a decision based upon their own research have my respect, most didn't and bought the headlines.

I think you need to read the last sentence more carefully!

 

[wellquickwoody]

Er, I was stereotyping in response to your stereotype of Brexit voters believing the ridiculous claim about the NHS. I have many times complained that the campaign was awful and divisive from both sides and I hate the way the NHS and the queue of immigrants was used. But that does not detract from my answer.

Of course many remain voters are very reasonable and have accepted the result. But this referendum has led, I believe, to the biggest moan our country has ever witnessed. I am genuinely sorry for you, and other remain voters who have felt hurt by the process and I understand some feel a sense of loss. I hope that in time those feelings will heal. Of course that depends upon how successful the politicians are which remains to be seen.

As for my own opinion, I am neither qualified, nor do I have the inclination to suggest a way forward. I knew what I was voting for, but there was never a way put forward as the referendum was not fought on party political lines. I agree that this could be construed as a weakness, but we are stuck with it.

Patronising too. It does you no favours.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Patronising too. It does you no favours.

You just seem to want an argument. Fair enough. I didn't intend to patronise, I am sorry you found that patronising.

 

[GT49er]

What I don't understand now though, when we are about to kick this off in 2017 and begin 'negotiating the best deal for Britain', why would our chief negotiator show his hand so openly in advance?

Am I missing something?

No, you're not missing anything; it would be stupid to reveal our hand before negotiations start.

The only ones who can't see this are the remainers - their fantasy scenario goes something like this, I think:
1). The government sets out their criteria for the leave negotiations, and put them before Parliament;
2). Parliament debates this, and comes up with what they decide is the best deal for Britain;
3). Theresa May and Co. put this deal to the EU;
4). The EU says, "Eff off, no chance", so we say oh, we'd better stay in then.

 

[The Rivet]

You just seem to want an argument. Fair enough. I didn't intend to patronise, I am sorry you found that patronising.

Careful because in todays' world you are not allowed to shame, patronise or call out fools. It's called the new bullying don't ya know!

 

[Jim in the West]

I'm still not sure what it is about EU membership that's holding us back. We are a very succesful economy (5th biggest in the world), and membership of the EU gives us access to preferential trade deals with almost every nation in the world. Apparently (according to Leavers) once out of the EU we will be able to negotiate new deals with the rest of the world on better terms! Frankly, that it ludicrous. The EU is the largest importer/exporter in the world. It has huge leverage. We are poxy in comparison.

And the rest of the world will be far more concerned with potentially renegotiating their own deals with the rest of the EU. I saw an example of one such problem the other day....the EU has an agreement to import around 38,000 tonnes of beef pa with a range of countries. Once we leave, how do you re-allocate those 38,000 tonnes? Deciding that could theoretically take a long time, and will need to involve loads of countries (not just the EU27 and the UK). This is just one example out of hundreds of thousands.

This is why various experts are predicting we need to recruit upwards of 30,000 civil servants to undertake the negotiations. At a time when the rest of the EU is likely to be diverted by other issues.

The more I get to see of this, the more I think that we will be toast if we trigger Article 50.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I'm still not sure what it is about EU membership that's holding us back. We are a very succesful economy (5th biggest in the world), and membership of the EU gives us access to preferential trade deals with almost every nation in the world. Apparently (according to Leavers) once out of the EU we will be able to negotiate new deals with the rest of the world on better terms! Frankly, that it ludicrous. The EU is the largest importer/exporter in the world. It has huge leverage. We are poxy in comparison.

And the rest of the world will be far more concerned with potentially renegotiating their own deals with the rest of the EU. I saw an example of one such problem the other day....the EU has an agreement to import around 38,000 tonnes of beef pa with a range of countries. Once we leave, how do you re-allocate those 38,000 tonnes? Deciding that could theoretically take a long time, and will need to involve loads of countries (not just the EU27 and the UK). This is just one example out of hundreds of thousands.

This is why various experts are predicting we need to recruit upwards of 30,000 civil servants to undertake the negotiations. At a time when the rest of the EU is likely to be diverted by other issues.

The more I get to see of this, the more I think that we will be toast if we trigger Article 50.

Reallocating beef? Honestly?

 

[Steve in Japan]

I'm still not sure what it is about EU membership that's holding us back. We are a very succesful economy (5th biggest in the world), and membership of the EU gives us access to preferential trade deals with almost every nation in the world. Apparently (according to Leavers) once out of the EU we will be able to negotiate new deals with the rest of the world on better terms! Frankly, that it ludicrous. The EU is the largest importer/exporter in the world. It has huge leverage. We are poxy in comparison.

And the rest of the world will be far more concerned with potentially renegotiating their own deals with the rest of the EU. I saw an example of one such problem the other day....the EU has an agreement to import around 38,000 tonnes of beef pa with a range of countries. Once we leave, how do you re-allocate those 38,000 tonnes? Deciding that could theoretically take a long time, and will need to involve loads of countries (not just the EU27 and the UK). This is just one example out of hundreds of thousands.

This is why various experts are predicting we need to recruit upwards of 30,000 civil servants to undertake the negotiations. At a time when the rest of the EU is likely to be diverted by other issues.

The more I get to see of this, the more I think that we will be toast if we trigger Article 50.

No, you're right. Let's forget the vote ever happened. That'll be for the best. (searches for irony emoji....)

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

No, you're not missing anything; it would be stupid to reveal our hand before negotiations start.

The only ones who can't see this are the remainers - their fantasy scenario goes something like this, I think:
1). The government sets out their criteria for the leave negotiations, and put them before Parliament;
2). Parliament debates this, and comes up with what they decide is the best deal for Britain;
3). Theresa May and Co. put this deal to the EU;
4). The EU says, "Eff off, no chance", so we say oh, we'd better stay in then.

I though this was a walk in the park because we buy loads of Prosecco and Mercs?

 

[GT49er]

The more I get to see of this, the more I think that we will be toast if we trigger Article 50.

The government will be toast if we don't!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The more I get to see of this, the more I think that we will be toast if we trigger Article 50.

The more I see the more I feel parliament absolutely needs to scrutinise any plan and subsequent deal. Anything less will be utterly reckless.

 

[GT49er]

I'm still not sure what it is about EU membership that's holding us back. We are a very succesful economy (5th biggest in the world), and membership of the EU gives us access to preferential trade deals with almost every nation in the world. Apparently (according to Leavers) once out of the EU we will be able to negotiate new deals with the rest of the world on better terms! Frankly, that it ludicrous. The EU is the largest importer/exporter in the world. It has huge leverage. We are poxy in comparison.

And the rest of the world will be far more concerned with potentially renegotiating their own deals with the rest of the EU. I saw an example of one such problem the other day....the EU has an agreement to import around 38,000 tonnes of beef pa with a range of countries. Once we leave, how do you re-allocate those 38,000 tonnes? Deciding that could theoretically take a long time, and will need to involve loads of countries (not just the EU27 and the UK). This is just one example out of hundreds of thousands.

Remoaners and beef(ing)........wouldn't be a connection there, would there?

This is why various experts are predicting we need to recruit upwards of 30,000 civil servants to undertake the negotiations.

Simple - we can just re-direct that £350M we are saving to spend on the NHS to pay for them!