Define success? I mainly voted leave as I feared for our future. We had the Maastricht Treaty & Lisbon Treaty and the direction of travel is clearly "ever closer union". Now that we've left next time they have another treaty to move a step closer to a United States of Europe we won't be part of it. That would be all the success I need thanks. (steps back and waits for hysterical remoaner wailing, insults and 2000 word replies from the usual suspects who can't stand an alternative point of view).
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[Politics] Brexit
- Thread starter KingstonSeagull
- Start date
Being a keen gardener I thought it was strange how this year all the garden centres and supermarkets had summer bedding plants for sale weeks earlier until the news inform me that is yet another benefit of Brexit and to expect all the garden plants to increase in price as checks are imposed on items that the day before didn’t need to be checked
- Jul 10, 2003
- 27,941
Or we could have used our position as the second most powerful member of the largest trading bloc in the world and negotiated not to take on "an ever closer union" when we decided it wasn't beneficial to Britain. Just like the way we had opt outs for Schengen, the Euro, the Charter of fundamental rights, the area of freedom, security and justice, the social chapter and all the other UK exceptions. Ironically a lot of which where negotiated as part of the Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties that you 'feared for'
Politicians of all political hues managed to do this very successfully over the last 40 years before Cameron decided on a great ruse to stop Farage nicking 'his' votes
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Your personal definition of Brexit success is not an issue; that's your business... but your comment in brackets is clearly provocative and vacuous.
The Leave lobby set out specific goals by which we can measure its success and judge it more impersonally and objectively.
This is what we can judge it on...
Brexit is successful if it fulfils the 2016 campaign commitments, namely;
- The referendum offered Brexit payments of £350 million to the NHS;
- The referendum offered single market benefits but not obligations;
- Freedom of movement will end for foreigners not for the UK population;
- Brexit means global trade deals but no new or additional frontier controls on existing trade or travel routes between the UK and the EU;
- The referendum campaign offered a new UK-EU trade deal, meaning there would be no risk of leaving without a deal and
- Brexit would be easy, risk free, straightforward and with the UK holding all the cards.
The truth is somewhat more mundane: the Brexit referendum offering is utter unicorn drivel.
Blah blah blah. You remoaners just go on and on with your so-called facts.
Precisely.Or we could have used our position as the second most powerful member of the largest trading bloc in the world and negotiated not to take on "an ever closer union" when we decided it wasn't beneficial to Britain. Just like the way we had opt outs for Schengen, the Euro, the Charter of fundamental rights, the area of freedom, security and justice, the social chapter and all the other UK exceptions. Ironically a lot of which where negotiated as part of the Maastricht and Lisbon Treaties that you 'feared for'
Politicians of all political hues managed to do this very successfully over the last 40 years before Cameron decided on a great ruse to stop Farage nicking 'his' votes
Honestly. These Brexit Bravehearts remind me of the old Russians who toast Joe Stalin's birthday every year, commenting that 'at least we're not all speaking German'.
Pavilionaire
Well-known member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 31,310
Please tell us what your fears were for the future of the UK, I would genuinely be fascinated to know. Give me examples of where you think the UK would have succumbed to lost sovereignty that would have impacted negatively on UK society.
Given with the UK's Schengen opt-out we were protected from the abolishment of border controls, the Economic & Monetary Union opt-out protected us from having to adopt the Euro. We also had opt-outs on Fundamental Rights, freedom, security and justice. These opt-outs were enshrined in law. Cameron then negotiated further opt-out that would have given us even more protection from closer union - in law - but these were never implemented because we'd already Brexited.
I fail to see how the UK's sovereignty was ever under threat, yet some people act like our opt-outs never existed. The EU laws that we did sign up to were - in the main - to make trade easier, to make the environment better, to make travel, work and citizenship easier, to enshrine human rights, and now that we have left there is negative drift in all of these areas.
Let me ask you something. Poland has spent most of the last 500 years fighting for its right to exist and national sovereignty, from the Prussians, the Russians, the Nazis and the Soviets among others. Yet for a nation which arguably has fought harder than almost any other in Europe to exist, they don’t believe there is any serious risk of losing their sovereignty through membership of the EU.
Given that, why do you believe that they are wrong and Britain, a nation which has existed in it’s present form for centuries, faced barely any serious attempts to topple it for longer than that and hasn’t been successfully invaded and conquered for nearly 1,000 years, has the right to lecture them on what “sovereignty” looks like?
- Oct 12, 2022
- 2,784
I respect your right to hold a different view, but must ask: What did/do you fear losing by ever closer ties with the European mainland?
Randy McNob
> > > > > > Cardiff > > > > >
- Jun 13, 2020
- 4,732
i've asked this question on several occasions in the past and never had a response, Brexiters usually run off at this point, the point at which you merely ask them to explain exactly what they claim to be vehemently against. I was actually geniunely interested in exactly what ever closer union entails and why that would against the interests of the UK? After all, as part of a Union any fundamental changes would have been agreed to and ratified by our elected representatives.
nicko31
Well-known member
Aside of the faux sovereignty line (something few leavers were talking about in the run up to the 2016)
What is the greatest tangible benefit you've personally experienced since leaving the EU?
BadFish
Huge Member
- Oct 19, 2003
- 18,419
I am glad it is looking like a success for you.
I guess the follow up question is around the benefits of not being part of a 'united States of Europe' . What are the main benefits you are feeling by not being part of that?
What was the future you feared so much?
I note that you have been a similar question by a few other posters. I am interested to kne: Do you consider these responses as 'hysterical remoaner wailing and insults'?
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When the Brexit controversy was at its most intense, I remember one commentator pointing out that, for a significant number of Leave voters, the issue was emotional rather than rational; and you cannot reason with emotion.
Looking again at the language and content of @bazbha's post, I think s/he falls firmly into that category; he is not alone, but I suspect s/he is now in a significantly diminished, immovable minority...... and ironically several Leavers who recognised they made a mistake in the Referendum have done so emotionally rather than forensically!
Looking again at the language and content of @bazbha's post, I think s/he falls firmly into that category; he is not alone, but I suspect s/he is now in a significantly diminished, immovable minority...... and ironically several Leavers who recognised they made a mistake in the Referendum have done so emotionally rather than forensically!
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Baldseagull
Well-known member
Tony Blairs Government passed an act which meant the UK could not agree to any further EU treaty amendments, without a referendum. That has been repealed now as part of leaving, so we didn't have to have a referendum on the treaty change that involved us leaving.
When we rejoin, and we will, that legislation may not get reinstated, so the Brexit success you claim now, could yet turn out to be the opposite, as Brexit removed the referendum requirement for a Government to sign us up to a US of E.
Your Brexit succes is just a security blanket you can hide under, when you get scared of the non existent US of E.
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Baldseagull
Well-known member
We all make a lot of our decisions in life emotionally, it requires less effort. The trick is trying to recognise that when someone is trying to get an emotional decision from you, it's often because they have a weak rational proposition.
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Absolutely. I think we all tend to respond emotionally first, but then it then becomes important to reflect on feelings and consider if they are rational and sensible. In my opinion, many Brexit Supporters didn't get that far!
I agree with you.
That's two of us.
Mellor 3 Ward 4
Well-known member
For me (as a remainer) it's the fall of the value of the £, making exports cheaper, my company making more money (paying more tax) and employing more people.
Of course, there's more paperwork/hassle involved now and I'd rather be in the EU (especially hate the 90/180 rule) but there are benefits.
I still think we'll rejoin the Single Market (possibly in Starmer's second term)
Pavilionaire
Well-known member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 31,310
Where have you disappeared to? There's 3 or 4 of us that have asked you essentially the same question, and all from the viewpoint of genuine curiosity, i.e. why did you fear for our future when we had so many opt-outs on all the big stuff about 'ever closer union'?
Did you know about the opt-outs?
Are you happy with the way things have turned out since the Referendum?
On balance, was Brexit worth it for you?
Greg Bobkin
Silver Seagull
- May 22, 2012
- 16,277
Interesting juxtaposition there
Also, WTF is a 'United States of Europe' when it's at home?