[Politics] Brexit

[peterward]

The EU system is a good one. like most Brexiters, you are easily pursuaded that democracy should be simplistic where people have direct electoral voting power, which on the face of it seems right but the problem is that in nearly every example it delivers the wrong result - like Trump, like Brexit, like boaty Mcboatface. Thats because people are easily conned and manipulated and leaves the door open for those with money and influence to win political power by creating perceptions through the media and winning support by malevolence and division, Brexit being the perfect example. The only way such direct democracy would work is if it heavily regulated, every statement, promise or fact would be checked,by an independent adjudicator and people educated on what is fake and exagerated, who people work for or being funded by etc, so there is full transparency in the pursuit that voters would vote in the best interests of the electorate as a whole, whicb would be extremely difficult to do. The (darker) powers that be prefer direct democracy as they can easily pour enough money into getting people to vote the way they want whilst also making the voters revel in the illusion they have a true democracy when in reality they have been duped into voting a certain way which is usually always against their own interests. The EU is a better political organisation as it is more self governing for the interests of the organisation as a whole - for the people it represents and not (like in this country and the US) one politicial party which is mostly working for the benefits of it's rich donors, big business and corporations and the people are just an afterthought.

So anyone who still buys into this idea of democracy and that the EU is not democratic really does not know what they talking about....

Started off slowly, decended into self aggrandising waffle, tailed off further in the latter stages, but pulled it back nicely in the last line with a few words of spot on self critique!

 

[El Presidente]

Higher Educashun, one of this country’s most successful export industries, faces big research funding gap following withdrawal from EU. Who would have thunk that?



UK university research faces funding cliff edge as EU support ends

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The UK does have access to the EU single market. It's just not IN the single market so checks are required when trading to ensure EU standards are met when the UK exports.

I would hazard a guess a lot of people voted for Brexit simply because they didn't want to be part of the political European Union of Socialist Republics, governed by unelected corrupt mafia politicians in Brussels revelling in a EU parliamentary gravy train tax free environment. The single market was the brainchild of Brits and a good thing it is. The Treaties of Maastrict and Lisbon changed the basis of EU membership. When we joined the Common Market it was a trading relationship. It's now a political union.

No. We joined EFTA 3rd May1960 along with Denmark, Norway, Austria, Portugal, Sweden, and Switzerland.
We wanted to join the EEC and applied from 1963 onwards but Charles de Gaulle kept saying NON, because he wanted it to be France/Germany led.
Eventually, we succeeded in 1973, and then a referendum held later to leave or remain, with the result being over 60% remain.

We had a trading relationship for 13 years, so make no mistake, we knew it was going into a closer political union. Don’t forget Europe was still very much divided with the Berlin Wall, the Prague Spring etc in the 60s.

 

[Randy McNob]

Started off slowly, decended into self aggrandising waffle, tailed off further in the latter stages, but pulled it back nicely in the last line with a few words of spot on self critique!

Fine, your opinion. However, your views on democracy are ideological, not supported by evidence and does not stand up to scrutiny, unlike mine, in which you merely have to replay the last 7 years of political events. I guess it's just another Brexiter / remainer debate or ideology v Facts

 

[nicko31]

Higher Educashun, one of this country’s most successful export industries, faces big research funding gap following withdrawal from EU. Who would have thunk that?



UK university research faces funding cliff edge as EU support ends

We're born a lap ahead of everyone else with the gift of the English Language, but somehow we manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

What is a disaster for something we're really good at...

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Ha ha. Not what he expected

 

[Nobby]

Sure somebody must be able to give at least one sensible, genuine reason or example of how it has made life in the UK better?

Tick Tock tick Tock………

 

[nicko31]

Gotta love these self imposed trade sanctions

Tomato shortage: How far is Brexit to blame?

Many people have claimed Brexit is to blame for the UK tomato shortage - what is the evidence?

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Jim in the West]

Fantastic and the point of that is..............

MEPs unlike MPs do not propose or inititate any legislation.
You can write to your MEP like you can your MP, but your MP could in effect put forward a legislative proposal based on your letter, MEPs cant.

Laws are created and set by the commision and council which is not elected by PR, its not elected by anyone.

Us mere mortals can do nothing to get rid of them or have any say in the laws they set, we can only elect talking heads who debate. In fact on numerous occasions those we have expressly kicked out of office democratically at the national ballot box are then appointed by the EU to legislate over us in laws that supercede national laws, I personally dont understand how anyone is comfortable with that.

Its anti democratic.

That has always been one of the fundamental flaws of the EU (there are too many benefits) but representative democracy is not one of them.

I wholly concur with @Baldrick comments, maybe many would think its better to try and resolve these things within rather than leave, its a rational argument, but also to reach beyond the tribal zero sum remain/leave arguments that ignore both the faults and the benefits, the EU power structure in its present form flawed imho and until it reaches its "ever closer union" destination of a full political union, the trade off for the benefits is a cumbersome/slow decision making political body of appointess, lobbyists and 27 national vested interests............... the final ideological shape of that full political union is uncertain.

Swiss style, Norway etc may well be where we end up under Starmer and I for one wouldnt mind that level of present situation pragmatism versus out of date historical arguments.

I completely agree that the EU isn't a perfect model - I was taking issue with the implication that it's corrupt and the UK isn't. However, there IS a reasonable level of democracy:

- The Commission President is elected by the MEPs (who are elected)
- The Commissioners are nominated by individual countries (and obviously by the governing party in each country - so the UK commissioner will have been nominated by the UK government, which is elected democratically - albeit with the caveat that it's FPTP)
- MEPs have the power to force commissioners to resign
- The European Council comprises PMs of each member state, so - if we were still in the EU - our Council Member would be Rishi Sunak (and the fact that he was elected to that post by only a few hundred people is the fault of a UK system, not an EU system).

There are flaws in the EU model. But, I write this as a constituent of an MP who has been under investigation for various alleged misdemeanours. The investigation started nearly a year ago, and hasn't concluded. The MP in question hasn't voted for a year, and hasn't even been to the House of Commons in that time. There is absolutely no point in writing to him. [There are other faults with the UK system, too!]

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I completely agree that the EU isn't a perfect model - I was taking issue with the implication that it's corrupt and the UK isn't. However, there IS a reasonable level of democracy:

- The Commission President is elected by the MEPs (who are elected)
- The Commissioners are nominated by individual countries (and obviously by the governing party in each country - so the UK commissioner will have been nominated by the UK government, which is elected democratically - albeit with the caveat that it's FPTP)
- MEPs have the power to force commissioners to resign
- The European Council comprises PMs of each member state, so - if we were still in the EU - our Council Member would be Rishi Sunak (and the fact that he was elected to that post by only a few hundred people is the fault of a UK system, not an EU system).

There are flaws in the EU model. But, I write this as a constituent of an MP who has been under investigation for various alleged misdemeanours. The investigation started nearly a year ago, and hasn't concluded. The MP in question hasn't voted for a year, and hasn't even been to the House of Commons in that time. There is absolutely no point in writing to him. [There are other faults with the UK system, too!]

There are more unelected politicans in the House of Lords, than in the EU Parliament representing 27 different countries.

 

[GrizzlingGammon]

Higher Educashun, one of this country’s most successful export industries, faces big research funding gap following withdrawal from EU. Who would have thunk that?



UK university research faces funding cliff edge as EU support ends

Are country has spocken.

We dunt like edyucaited people lookin down on us and telling us wot too do. Are country is grate. Stop torking it down.

 

[BadFish]

What happened to all the posters that championed Brexit?

I must admit that my take was way wide of the mark, I thought it would make much difference while you keep voting Tory. I was totally wrong and I apologise for that (although I didn't vote).

Does this thread reflect the mood of the rest of the UK? A small minority of people failing to argue that really this is what everyone wanted and this is what they voted for. Everyone else has quietly disappeared watching in horror as the things they passionately argued about crumble to dust.

In hindsight it looks like a second referendum would have been a good idea.

Surely it is not time to pressure the politicians to recognise unmitigated f*** up and make moves to rejoin the EU.

Or are the right wing press still managing to drip enough decisive bullshit in the nation's consciousness that enough people are clinging to the debris in the hope that Farage's UK lifeboat is on the way.

What a a f*** up!

 

[Lever]

What happened to all the posters that championed Brexit?

I must admit that my take was way wide of the mark, I thought it would make much difference while you keep voting Tory. I was totally wrong and I apologise for that (although I didn't vote).

Does this thread reflect the mood of the rest of the UK? A small minority of people failing to argue that really this is what everyone wanted and this is what they voted for. Everyone else has quietly disappeared watching in horror as the things they passionately argued about crumble to dust.

In hindsight it looks like a second referendum would have been a good idea.

Surely it is not time to pressure the politicians to recognise unmitigated f*** up and make moves to rejoin the EU.

Or are the right wing press still managing to drip enough decisive bullshit in the nation's consciousness that enough people are clinging to the debris in the hope that Farage's UK lifeboat is on the way.

What a a f*** up!

 

[Wokeworrier]

What happened to all the posters that championed Brexit?

I must admit that my take was way wide of the mark, I thought it would make much difference while you keep voting Tory. I was totally wrong and I apologise for that (although I didn't vote).

Does this thread reflect the mood of the rest of the UK? A small minority of people failing to argue that really this is what everyone wanted and this is what they voted for. Everyone else has quietly disappeared watching in horror as the things they passionately argued about crumble to dust.

In hindsight it looks like a second referendum would have been a good idea.

Surely it is not time to pressure the politicians to recognise unmitigated f*** up and make moves to rejoin the EU.

Or are the right wing press still managing to drip enough decisive bullshit in the nation's consciousness that enough people are clinging to the debris in the hope that Farage's UK lifeboat is on the way.

What a a f*** up!

Q1. Some have been banned, some got bored winding up grief stricken europhiles but I expect most have better things to do with their lives.

Q2 This thread reflects the mood of a tiny minority of individuals who never came to terms with a democratic event and have very little real life stimulation to occupy their empty lives ...

 

[BadFish]

Q1. Some have been banned, some got bored winding up grief stricken europhiles but I expect most have better things to do with their lives.

Q2 This thread reflects the mood of a tiny minority of individuals who never came to terms with a democratic event and have very little real life stimulation to occupy their empty lives ...

 

[Lever]

What happened to all the posters that championed Brexit?

I must admit that my take was way wide of the mark, I thought it would make much difference while you keep voting Tory. I was totally wrong and I apologise for that (although I didn't vote).

Does this thread reflect the mood of the rest of the UK? A small minority of people failing to argue that really this is what everyone wanted and this is what they voted for. Everyone else has quietly disappeared watching in horror as the things they passionately argued about crumble to dust.

In hindsight it looks like a second referendum would have been a good idea.

Surely it is not time to pressure the politicians to recognise unmitigated f*** up and make moves to rejoin the EU.

Or are the right wing press still managing to drip enough decisive bullshit in the nation's consciousness that enough people are clinging to the debris in the hope that Farage's UK lifeboat is on the way.

What a a f*** up!

The sensible ones decided not to comment further.... and I respect them for that.

 

[BadFish]

The opinion polls seem pretty consistent in people's lack of support for Brexit.

 

[RandyWanger]

English (Wincanton) lost out to the French (Sodexo) in a deal to run our borders. Bit like the Dutch/French company printing our passports. English companies are losing out as they're not as competitive as those in Europe. Large government contracts should be fulfilled domestically regardless of what side of the fence you sit on.

 

[worthingweird]

The opinion polls seem pretty consistent in people's lack of support for Brexit.

Opinion polls haha...

 

[BadFish]

Opinion polls haha...

You disagree? People think it is going well?

Would love to hear your examples of its success.