[Politics] Brexit

[Blues Guitarist]

...unlike the legions of corrupt MPs in the UK with their special deals for their mates, their "consultancy" jobs with businesses who somehow seem to get preferential treatment, employing their wives/husbands/partners as assistants (paid for by us), plus the unelected House of Lords. Plus the fact that huge numbers of decisions in the UK are now taken at cabinet level, and back-bench MPs have no say. Etc, Etc. And in the EU you get to vote for your MEP via a system of proportional representation. It's not all rosy in the rest of Europe, but we have loads of issues in the UK.

...and, the only person who has explicitly lost a vote to be PM ... is now PM. I though the UK was supposed to be democratic.

 

[pb21]

Us mere mortals can do nothing to get rid of them or have any say in the laws they set...

This is quite patently wrong as we decided to get rid of them, and the laws they set, en masse.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

People need to be made to receive training and pass an exam before being awarded a vote. It shouldn't be a right. We don't have an automatic right to drive, or conduct complicated penis surgery. FFS.

 

[peterward]

...and, the only person who has explicitly lost a vote to be PM ... is now PM. I though the UK was supposed to be democratic.

dont want to split hairs as im sure you know well thats incorrect, we dont have votes for PM, only for local MPs of whom the leader of the party with the majority is by default PM, it is for the parties under their own rules to appoint their leaders (who become our defacto PM's) we dont directly vote for PMs.

 

[jcdenton08]

People need to be made to receive training and pass an exam before being awarded a vote. It shouldn't be a right. We don't have an automaitc right to drive, or conduct complicated penis surgery. FFS.

 

[peterward]

This is quite patently wrong as we decided to get rid of them, and the laws they set, en masse.

It is of course a reference of those who are within the EU and are still renewing their annual season ticket.

 

[Blues Guitarist]

dont want to split hairs as im sure you know well thats incorrect, we dont have votes for PM, only for local MPs of whom the leader of the party with the majority is by default PM, it is for the parties under their own rules to appoint their leaders (who become our defacto PM's) we dont directly vote for PMs.

What I said was perfectly correct. There was a vote by the Conservative party for PM. Rishi lost, but he is PM. (But what you said is also correct.)

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Fantastic and the point of that is..............

MEPs unlike MPs do not propose or inititate any legislation.
You can write to your MEP like you can your MP, but your MP could in effect put forward a legislative proposal based on your letter, MEPs cant.

Laws are created and set by the commision and council which is not elected by PR, its not elected by anyone.

Us mere mortals can do nothing to get rid of them or have any say in the laws they set, we can only elect talking heads who debate. In fact on numerous occasions those we have expressly kicked out of office democratically at the national ballot box are then appointed by the EU to legislate over us in laws that supercede national laws, I personally dont understand how anyone is comfortable with that.

Its anti democratic.

That has always been one of the fundamental flaws of the EU (there are too many benefits) but representative democracy is not one of them.

I wholly concur with @Baldrick comments, maybe many would think its better to try and resolve these things within rather than leave, its a rational argument, but also to reach beyond the tribal zero sum remain/leave arguments that ignore both the faults and the benefits, the EU power structure in its present form flawed imho and until it reaches its "ever closer union" destination of a full political union, the trade off for the benefits is a cumbersome/slow decision making political body of appointess, lobbyists and 27 national vested interests............... the final ideological shape of that full political union is uncertain.

Swiss style, Norway etc may well be where we end up under Starmer and I for one wouldnt mind that level of present situation pragmatism versus out of date historical arguments.

If the UK had suddenly become the rich man of Europe, having left the EU, you might have a point (in general terms about the virtue of Brexit - all that lovely new Freedom).

I agree with your final comment, and once the tories are gone (held hostage by the ERG) there may be some scope for all of that.

Meanwhile Sunak has won a great victory - restoring to Northern Ireland many of the advantages it had when in the EU, while remaining outside the EU.

So why have the mainland Brits been 'left behind'?

We absolutely know the direction of travel now. The ERG don't seem to have quite worked it out yet.....give them a few more days...

 

[Wokeworrier]

People need to be made to receive training and pass an exam before being awarded a vote. It shouldn't be a right. We don't have an automaitc right to drive, or conduct complicated penis surgery. FFS.

Shirley, anyone claiming (or reposting tweets claiming) we don't have access to the single market should be sent to voter re-education camps!?

Mind you, I'm not sure people who always vote for the red/blue team no matter the leader or policies eg. vote for Labour under Blair and Corbyn are best placed to lecture anyone about voting choices ...

 

[pb21]

It is of course a reference of those who are within the EU and are still renewing their annual season ticket.

Well, those people do have a say, both by who they chose to elect as their head of state and national Government (potential referendum like we had, forcing the EU's hand etc) and who represents them in the EU Parliament.

Admittedly, that level of democracy is a level removed, but I don't think it's fair to say us mortals have no say, we had (and they currently have) a lot.

Also, I'm not saying that level of democracy was an ideal. Rather, on balance, that 'con' was outweighed by the 'pros', which, IMO, are becoming more evident.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Fantastic and the point of that is..............

MEPs unlike MPs do not propose or inititate any legislation.
You can write to your MEP like you can your MP, but your MP could in effect put forward a legislative proposal based on your letter, MEPs cant.

Laws are created and set by the commision and council which is not elected by PR, its not elected by anyone.

Us mere mortals can do nothing to get rid of them or have any say in the laws they set, we can only elect talking heads who debate. In fact on numerous occasions those we have expressly kicked out of office democratically at the national ballot box are then appointed by the EU to legislate over us in laws that supercede national laws, I personally dont understand how anyone is comfortable with that.

Its anti democratic.

That has always been one of the fundamental flaws of the EU (there are too many benefits) but representative democracy is not one of them.

I wholly concur with @Baldrick comments, maybe many would think its better to try and resolve these things within rather than leave, its a rational argument, but also to reach beyond the tribal zero sum remain/leave arguments that ignore both the faults and the benefits, the EU power structure in its present form flawed imho and until it reaches its "ever closer union" destination of a full political union, the trade off for the benefits is a cumbersome/slow decision making political body of appointess, lobbyists and 27 national vested interests............... the final ideological shape of that full political union is uncertain.

Swiss style, Norway etc may well be where we end up under Starmer and I for one wouldnt mind that level of present situation pragmatism versus out of date historical arguments.

To be fair IIRC you have always backed the sovereignty argument and never claimed control of our borders, economic opportunities, more money to spend etc, but it is the hardest to prove/disprove due to the fact that there are no obvious figures/facts and objective measures.

I agree with you that there were always problems with the EU which British politicians of all political hues had negotiated hard for 40 years to alleviate. But that is why we never had the Full Political Union which you may have, quite reasonably, feared. We weren't even in Schengen or the Euro and had so many vetoes over the way the EU developed further.

That is what you can do if you are one of the two most powerful nations in the biggest trading bloc in the world.

But, in the ultimate 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater' we decided to give up the 'Best Deal' of anyone in the EU. We now have our 'sovereignty' but I seriously fear for Britain as a minor player in an ever more integrated and politically driven 21st century economy.

As you say, Switzerland, Norway would be better than where we are currently, but to try to emulate them, we really aren't negotiating from any position of strength. Although I'm pretty sure you wanted 'no deal' and the EU would have to come up with something (apologies if wrong).

I know you won't agree

 

[Wokeworrier]

This is quite patently wrong as we decided to get rid of them, and the laws they set, en masse.

And numerous regulars on this thread are outraged and appalled that our political overlords finally granted us some sort of democratic input ...

 

[pb21]

And numerous regulars on this thread are outraged and appalled that our political overlords finally granted us some sort of democratic input ...

We had it all the time.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Shirley, anyone claiming (or reposting tweets claiming) we don't have access to the single market should be sent to voter re-education camps!?

Mind you, I'm not sure people who always vote for the red/blue team no matter the leader or policies eg. vote for Labour under Blair and Corbyn are best placed to lecture anyone about voting choices ...

You do realise that what you are quoting was a satirical take of someone just like you

They say never explain a joke, but on this occasion, like a fine wine, it just gets better, You wouldn't be called Colin in real life, would you ? It would explain so much

 

[Wokeworrier]

We had it all the time

Really? Can you remind me when we last had the chance to directly effect the UK's relationship with the EC/EU.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Really? Can you remind me when we last had the chance to directly affect the UK's relationship with the EC/EU.

Corrected for you.

 

[pb21]

Really? Can you remind me when we last had the chance to directly effect the UK's relationship with the EC/EU.

Well, that's not the question you posited. You said:

...numerous regulars on this thread are outraged and appalled that our political overlords finally granted us some sort of democratic input ...

And, to that point, I say we certainly always had 'some sort of democratic input'.

To your new question, i.e "remind me when we last had the chance to directly effect [sic] the UK's relationship with the EC/EU [sic]." and I say the 2015 GE.

 

[Pavilionaire]

The UK does have access to the EU single market. It's just not IN the single market so checks are required when trading to ensure EU standards are met when the UK exports.

I would hazard a guess a lot of people voted for Brexit simply because they didn't want to be part of the political European Union of Socialist Republics, governed by unelected corrupt mafia politicians in Brussels revelling in a EU parliamentary gravy train tax free environment. The single market was the brainchild of Brits and a good thing it is. The Treaties of Maastrict and Lisbon changed the basis of EU membership. When we joined the Common Market it was a trading relationship. It's now a political union.

That the Uk had vetoes over. The Euro? veto. Schengen? veto. Closer political alignment? veto. They bent over backwards to give us wriggle room, and it still wasn't enough for the Brexiteers and Kippers.

 

[nicko31]

That the Uk had vetoes over. The Euro? veto. Schengen? veto. Closer political alignment? veto. They bent over backwards to give us wriggle room, and it still wasn't enough for the Brexiteers and Kippers.

Feels more self indulgent by the day

 

[Randy McNob]

Fantastic and the point of that is..............

MEPs unlike MPs do not propose or inititate any legislation.
You can write to your MEP like you can your MP, but your MP could in effect put forward a legislative proposal based on your letter, MEPs cant.

Laws are created and set by the commision and council which is not elected by PR, its not elected by anyone.

Us mere mortals can do nothing to get rid of them or have any say in the laws they set, we can only elect talking heads who debate. In fact on numerous occasions those we have expressly kicked out of office democratically at the national ballot box are then appointed by the EU to legislate over us in laws that supercede national laws, I personally dont understand how anyone is comfortable with that.

Its anti democratic.

That has always been one of the fundamental flaws of the EU (there are too many benefits) but representative democracy is not one of them.

I wholly concur with @Baldrick comments, maybe many would think its better to try and resolve these things within rather than leave, its a rational argument, but also to reach beyond the tribal zero sum remain/leave arguments that ignore both the faults and the benefits, the EU power structure in its present form flawed imho and until it reaches its "ever closer union" destination of a full political union, the trade off for the benefits is a cumbersome/slow decision making political body of appointess, lobbyists and 27 national vested interests............... the final ideological shape of that full political union is uncertain.

Swiss style, Norway etc may well be where we end up under Starmer and I for one wouldnt mind that level of present situation pragmatism versus out of date historical arguments.

The EU system is a good one. like most Brexiters, you are easily pursuaded that democracy should be simplistic where people have direct electoral voting power, which on the face of it seems right but the problem is that in nearly every example it delivers the wrong result - like Trump, like Brexit, like boaty Mcboatface. Thats because people are easily conned and manipulated and leaves the door open for those with money and influence to win political power by creating perceptions through the media and winning support by malevolence and division, Brexit being the perfect example. The only way such direct democracy would work is if it heavily regulated, every statement, promise or fact would be checked,by an independent adjudicator and people educated on what is fake and exagerated, who people work for or being funded by etc, so there is full transparency in the pursuit that voters would vote in the best interests of the electorate as a whole, whicb would be extremely difficult to do. The (darker) powers that be prefer direct democracy as they can easily pour enough money into getting people to vote the way they want whilst also making the voters revel in the illusion they have a true democracy when in reality they have been duped into voting a certain way which is usually always against their own interests. The EU is a better political organisation as it is more self governing for the interests of the organisation as a whole - for the people it represents and not (like in this country and the US) one politicial party which is mostly working for the benefits of it's rich donors, big business and corporations and the people are just an afterthought.

So anyone who still buys into this idea of democracy and that the EU is not democratic really does not know what they talking about....