[Politics] Brexit

[Jim in the West]

Benidorm is in Spain. I'm not aware that the Spanish are undermanning their customs posts or applying every rule as rigidly as possible? Or maybe they are, but no-one is going to Spain so it doesn't matter?

There is no doubt that Brexit has given the French the chance to apply some new rules. But there is equally no doubt that the reason for the delays is that French customs could not cope with the expected number of people trying to get into France. This problem will go away in time - either the French will get more customs officers, or they will find a way of processing people quicker, or they will ration the number of visitors, or people will get fed up and go somewhere else instead. But whatever it is, only the French can solve it, and if (as so many people believe) it is entirely down to Brexit, then there is no solution that the French can apply and cross-channel travel will have to be much restricted forever.

What's the general view on the UK's application of the rules? The UK has equally had the chance to slow down admissions by checking and stamping passports, and has chosen not to - presumably because there is no economic, social or security reason to do so. Is the UK in the wrong, or is that a valid option for a country to take?

Having travelled through Alicante* twice in the past three months I can tell you that the same process IS being applied by the Spanish authorities, and it can be carnage. The first time we flew to Alicante this year my wife almost missed our flight, as there were just TWO Spanish staff stamping passports (nb: I have dual nationality, so was able to use my Irish passport, which is an absolute godsend these days). The queues were horrendous. The next time we flew, several people fainted in the queues, which seemed if anything even longer. I guess these events don't make the news because they're taking place abroad, whereas the situation at Dover/Calais (and at St Pancras/Gare du Nord) is different, with each country carrying out passport checks BEFORE the journey, rather than at the end.

[*the airport for Benidorm, obvs]

 

[Simster]

Benidorm is in Spain. I'm not aware that the Spanish are undermanning their customs posts or applying every rule as rigidly as possible? Or maybe they are, but no-one is going to Spain so it doesn't matter?

There is no doubt that Brexit has given the French the chance to apply some new rules. But there is equally no doubt that the reason for the delays is that French customs could not cope with the expected number of people trying to get into France. This problem will go away in time - either the French will get more customs officers, or they will find a way of processing people quicker, or they will ration the number of visitors, or people will get fed up and go somewhere else instead. But whatever it is, only the French can solve it, and if (as so many people believe) it is entirely down to Brexit, then there is no solution that the French can apply and cross-channel travel will have to be much restricted forever.

What's the general view on the UK's application of the rules? The UK has equally had the chance to slow down admissions by checking and stamping passports, and has chosen not to - presumably because there is no economic, social or security reason to do so. Is the UK in the wrong, or is that a valid option for a country to take?

I was in Tenerife a month ago. We nearly missed our flight home because, inexplicably, Spanish customs were checking passports before boarding passes and then stamping them after boarding passes had been checked! There you go, so now you're aware of that too.

I'd be interested to know, at what point does a Brexiteer as literate as you obviously are decide that maybe it is time for a review on whether this particular flavour of Brexit isn't working very well? I mean I genuinely get some of the Brexit arguments, I really do. Protection of the Labour market, the Federal direction of the bloc without asking it's people etc. But surely you can see we didn't need the extraordinary hard line Brexit we've got? It's nothing but a protection racket for those with off shore taxable income and is the reason I'll never trust the Tory party again.

How many pro Brexit people would have accepted a version where we paid for access to the single market (for the sake of our businesses that have spent decades building and relying on seamless supply lines with the EU), stayed inside the customs union (for the sake of peace) and yet come to some arrangement allowing us to restrict labour movement from certain countries?

Had that happened, we'd have had chuntering from remainers mourning the loss of our influence, and the same from hard line Brexiteers wondering whether it was even worth it because it wasn't hard line enough. But the average person (remain and Brexit alike) would have moved on a long time ago and accepted where we were at.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I watched a bit of the debate thing but had to switch it off. They were asked a series of questions and gave simple vague “yes we will do that” or “no, we won’t do that” answers. If they’re aiming for their target voters it’s a very sad inditement of how stupid the the Tory party members are.

But the two Tory party members who have both been on NSC in the last couple of days asking everyone how they should vote aren't .................... Oh

 

[Eric the meek]

This is a question for the Brexiteers.

Clearly, none of you have changed your minds on Brexit, which I wouldn't have expected. If you are still on this thread, resolutely defending Brexit, then you won't have changed your minds.

But after all the information that has been put to you on the chaos at Dover, seeing news items on the huge queues approaching Dover, and finally, travel expert Simon Calder taking timings at Dover port, and - absolutely spelling it out to you - are any of you prepared to move just a little and acknowledge that the Brexit changes may, possibly, be having a slight effect?

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Sorry - got to ask - what does the highlighted sentence actually mean ? Men go to Portugal to get the snip ?

Ha. It was in relation to a number of people who I spoke to who up sticks and moved to Portugal at retirement age a few years back. The Portuguese government were effectively giving people tax breaks on pension pots recognising that the wealthy English pension market was good for the local economy (and the tax man here wasn't catching up with them at the time).

Unfortunately for me, these guys were 10-15 years older than me with final salary pensions and the like unlike my shithouse one so I have neither partaken or know how it is going post Brexit. These loopholes may well now be closed but it appears from the snippets I see that Portugal are doing what they can to make life easier with the e gates being the example.

 

[nicko31]

This is a question for the Brexiteers.

Clearly, none of you have changed your minds on Brexit, which I wouldn't have expected. If you are still on this thread, resolutely defending Brexit, then you won't have changed your minds.

But after all the information that has been put to you on the chaos at Dover, seeing news items on the huge queues approaching Dover, and finally, travel expert Simon Calder taking timings at Dover port, and - absolutely spelling it out to you - are any of you prepared to move just a little and acknowledge that the Brexit changes may, possibly, be having a slight effect?

Maybe the same question should be put to Sunak and Truss, clearly still trying to gaslight the public

 

[Thunder Bolt]

From this BBC report - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/62294901

€7 for three years visa. Which isn’t bad, but I’ve also seen suggestions of having to be finger printed?

 

[South Stand Bonfire]

Out of interest, if anyone is using Eurotunnel today or tomorrow, can they post how it is now re the queues getting there please just so I can gauge my trip on Thursday midday?

 

[Iggle Piggle]

From this BBC report - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/62294901

Unfortunately that system has been delayed a number of times already. The chances are that it will be delayed again if the industry rumblings are correct.

 

[nicko31]

€7 for three years visa. Which isn’t bad, but I’ve also seen suggestions of having to be finger printed?

I actually think the whole thing will sort itself out in time as the process becomes more electronic. They need this as UK citizens make millions of visits to the EU and visit must be monitored or many will exceed the 90 out of 180 days.

Crucially FOM is gone, missed opportunities in particular for the young. Little surprise so few vote Tory

 

[Wozza]

A few years back, I was due to go to Greece with my eldest.

After tucking him into bed, I started packing and realised my passport was due to expire at the end of the following day. Disaster!

Trip off?! What would I tell my boy?!

I made a frantic call to a contact in customs, who said I'd be fine flying out as my passport was still technically valid.

And it was.

When we left Kos a few days later, with my expired passport, we got held for maybe 15min as staff asked a few questions and made some checks. At Gatwick, there was even less fuss.

God I love(d) freedom of movement within the EU.

 

[Surf's Up]

This is a question for the Brexiteers.

Clearly, none of you have changed your minds on Brexit, which I wouldn't have expected. If you are still on this thread, resolutely defending Brexit, then you won't have changed your minds.

But after all the information that has been put to you on the chaos at Dover, seeing news items on the huge queues approaching Dover, and finally, travel expert Simon Calder taking timings at Dover port, and - absolutely spelling it out to you - are any of you prepared to move just a little and acknowledge that the Brexit changes may, possibly, be having a slight effect?

Good question but surely you're not expecting an answer are you? Brexiteers only respond to the lies they propagate not to the facts.

 

[dsr-burnley]

This is a question for the Brexiteers.

Clearly, none of you have changed your minds on Brexit, which I wouldn't have expected. If you are still on this thread, resolutely defending Brexit, then you won't have changed your minds.

But after all the information that has been put to you on the chaos at Dover, seeing news items on the huge queues approaching Dover, and finally, travel expert Simon Calder taking timings at Dover port, and - absolutely spelling it out to you - are any of you prepared to move just a little and acknowledge that the Brexit changes may, possibly, be having a slight effect?

Certainly I didn't expect the EU to be so aggressive in defending the new rights that Brexit has given them. for example, with this dover thing, I don't see any reason why they need to be quite so slavish to the rules. The main effect of the new rules is that Britons can only spend 90 days in the EU on holiday - but is this particular issue important enough that they need all this rigmarole? How many people do they hope to stop from having 4 month holidays to make it worthwhile?

Similarly, the free trade issue. To me, but then I am a free trader, I thought it obvious that the EU would want free trade as being mutually beneficial. They don't - they want free trade with certain advantages. Teresa May was hopelessly incompetent on that negotiation, especially with her utter disregard for the Good Friday agreement in Northern Ireland. I can't work out whether Johnson salvaged something from the wreckage, or whether he did no good at all. But the current system is a shambles and we might as well withdraw altogether and trade under WTO rules rather than remain partly in thrall to the EU. I've never been convinced, anyway, that our huge balance of trade deficit with the EU is a good thing to be retained at all costs.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Ah yes, they need us more than we need them! I remember when then the head of the German car industry countered this and said the integrity of the single marker was worth more.

Out of interest, how many jobs have been lost in the UK motor manufacturing industry due to Brexit?

 

[A1X]

How many pro Brexit people would have accepted a version where we paid for access to the single market (for the sake of our businesses that have spent decades building and relying on seamless supply lines with the EU), stayed inside the customs union (for the sake of peace) and yet come to some arrangement allowing us to restrict labour movement from certain countries?

Had that happened, we'd have had chuntering from remainers mourning the loss of our influence, and the same from hard line Brexiteers wondering whether it was even worth it because it wasn't hard line enough. But the average person (remain and Brexit alike) would have moved on a long time ago and accepted where we were at.

I still believe that in the long run this is where we will end up. Meanwhile the UK Government has to have it's hissy fit and the ERG their moment of catharsis before we actually get to put some grown ups in place and start sorting the mess out. With proper safeguards in place so some future wrecker government formed out of whatever godforsaken entity grows out of the ERG next can't just overturn it all on a whim.

 

[Eric the meek]

Certainly I didn't expect the EU to be so aggressive in defending the new rights that Brexit has given them. for example, with this dover thing, I don't see any reason why they need to be quite so slavish to the rules. The main effect of the new rules is that Britons can only spend 90 days in the EU on holiday - but is this particular issue important enough that they need all this rigmarole? How many people do they hope to stop from having 4 month holidays to make it worthwhile?

Similarly, the free trade issue. To me, but then I am a free trader, I thought it obvious that the EU would want free trade as being mutually beneficial. They don't - they want free trade with certain advantages. Teresa May was hopelessly incompetent on that negotiation, especially with her utter disregard for the Good Friday agreement in Northern Ireland. I can't work out whether Johnson salvaged something from the wreckage, or whether he did no good at all. But the current system is a shambles and we might as well withdraw altogether and trade under WTO rules rather than remain partly in thrall to the EU. I've never been convinced, anyway, that our huge balance of trade deficit with the EU is a good thing to be retained at all costs.

If your first paragraph is a wind-up, then you've got a thumbs up from me!

But in case it isn't, freedom of movement has ceased both ways. Why did you vote for taking back control of our borders, but are then indignant when you discover the EU already does the same thing?
Isn't that your fault for not realising it? Or is it someone else's fault?

Here is a list of checks the French border control now have to do, as well as stamping each passport:

(taken from https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/62294901)

checking the identity page
checking the traveller hasn't been to the EU for more than 90 days in the last 180 days
checking if you have at least 3 months left on your passport
checking that your passport is issued less than 10 years before the date you enter the country
checking the traveller has a return ticket
checking proof of insurance for your trip
asking whether the traveller has enough money to stay
Checking each person can take up to a minute, rather than a few seconds, transport expert Simon Calder told BBC Breakfast.

Your second paragraph is for another discussion. Let's stay focused on the chaos at Dover.

Edit - I gave you a thumbs up for answering. Thank you.

 

[nicko31]

Certainly I didn't expect the EU to be so aggressive in defending the new rights that Brexit has given them. for example, with this dover thing, I don't see any reason why they need to be quite so slavish to the rules. The main effect of the new rules is that Britons can only spend 90 days in the EU on holiday - but is this particular issue important enough that they need all this rigmarole? How many people do they hope to stop from having 4 month holidays to make it worthwhile?

Similarly, the free trade issue. To me, but then I am a free trader, I thought it obvious that the EU would want free trade as being mutually beneficial. They don't - they want free trade with certain advantages. Teresa May was hopelessly incompetent on that negotiation, especially with her utter disregard for the Good Friday agreement in Northern Ireland. I can't work out whether Johnson salvaged something from the wreckage, or whether he did no good at all. But the current system is a shambles and we might as well withdraw altogether and trade under WTO rules rather than remain partly in thrall to the EU. I've never been convinced, anyway, that our huge balance of trade deficit with the EU is a good thing to be retained at all costs.

Are you suggesting the EU are being too legalistic when it comes to signed International treaties?

 

[A1X]

Certainly I didn't expect the EU to be so aggressive in defending the new rights that Brexit has given them. for example, with this dover thing, I don't see any reason why they need to be quite so slavish to the rules. The main effect of the new rules is that Britons can only spend 90 days in the EU on holiday - but is this particular issue important enough that they need all this rigmarole? How many people do they hope to stop from having 4 month holidays to make it worthwhile?

So you didn't think a primarily rules-based organisation would actually be that fussed about enforcing rules?

 

[cunning fergus]

Ah yes, they need us more than we need them! I remember when then the head of the German car industry countered this and said the integrity of the single marker was worth more.

It would only make sense to the most passionate EU enthusiasts for German car manufacturers to make exports difficult to one of their biggest European market now they cannot export to Russia.

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...ine-invasion-production-get-worse-2022-03-02/

Especially with European car sales on the slide across the board.

https://autovista24.autovistagroup....r-recovery-of-european-new-car-market-in-may/

The Germans may be strategically inept with their reliance on Russian energy but they are not economically retarded like the French.

 

[Simster]

It would only make sense to the most passionate EU enthusiasts for German car manufacturers to make exports difficult to one of their biggest European market now they cannot export to Russia.

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...ine-invasion-production-get-worse-2022-03-02/

Especially with European car sales on the slide across the board.

This has been explained already. German car makers want our money but it won't be at the expense of the integrity of the single market. German car manufacturers make up a microscopic figure compared to the overall EC economy. Do keep up.

The Germans may be strategically inept with their reliance on Russian energy but they are not economically retarded like the French.

How they must both wish they are able to slash bureaucracy so that untreated shit can now legally flow down their rivers. And once again you prove your complete lack of self awareness calling the French "economically retarded". Have you seen what has happened to our export figures in the past 3 or 4 years? I'm sure they'll gladly take economic lectures from a simpleton supporting that.