[Politics] Brexit

[Westdene Seagull]

Did he say he was embarrassed to support his country? He simply said he wasn't keen on nationalism.

The two can co-exist surely?

Errr .... no !

"patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.an early consciousness of nationalism and pride

synonyms:

patriotism, patriotic sentiment, allegiance/loyalty to one's country, loyalism"

 

[5ways]

Patriotism is definitely not nationalism. Nationalism is my country right or wrong, patriotism can be much more subtle.

 

[pb21]

Patriotism is definitely not nationalism. Nationalism is my country right or wrong, patriotism can be much more subtle.

Quite.

http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-nationalism-and-patriotism/

 

[Pavilionaire]

The EU's big problem is the complete free movement of labour. As highlighted on Newsnight, the former Eastern bloc countries are losing skilled and semi-skilled labour and their tax base is being eroded, so when they have big capital projects to fund like the building of a power station Mr. Putin is only too willing to loan them the cash, in turn buying influence in their energy policy as well as having a hold over their political leaders.

Why would you be a care worker in Hungary when you can earn 6 times as much doing the same job in the UK?

My hope is that the UK helps lead reform on immigration policy within the EU. If we simply leave the EU there will be no nation state powerful enough to challenge France and Germany over this issue, so the EU will have a population imbalance leaving a vacuum in the Eastern bloc countries that Russia will fill. It's fine if the economic migrants want to work here for a few years, but what future is there for Romania and Bulgaria if things continue as they are?

 

[The Rivet]

Patriotism is definitely not nationalism. Nationalism is my country right or wrong, patriotism can be much more subtle.

Blimey 5ways, I find myself agreeing with you!

 

[Webbo]

Errr .... no !

"patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.an early consciousness of nationalism and pride

synonyms:

patriotism, patriotic sentiment, allegiance/loyalty to one's country, loyalism"

If you define words and concepts by looking at a dictionary it only takes you so far. Words and concepts are more organic and shift around.
To discuss what we mean by what we say is not semantics in my view, but an effort to better understand.
As I was growing up the word 'bitch' certainly did not have the impact it has now. Other words and concepts, such as 'Professional' are also loose terms often defined by people on the hoof. There is even a respectable branch of Philosophy called 'Linguistic Analysis' that considers this area.
Which brings me back to 'British'. For some it can be defined technically, as in if you hold a passport, for others it is kind of cultural, for others historical, for others racial, the definition of what is British is not a simple task, and the danger it seems to me, is that some people will seize the opportunity to define the term to suit their own ends. Like the National Front seizing the very fine Union Jack flag, and by association making the very flag threatening.

 

[beorhthelm]

The EU's big problem is the complete free movement of labour.

freedom of movement of labour is one of the sacred cows of the EU and there will be no reform on this issue, with or without our input. indeed, its one of the problems of the EU that movement of labour has morphed without proper authority into freedom of movement of people, regardless of their employment situation.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

The EU's big problem is the complete free movement of labour. As highlighted on Newsnight, the former Eastern bloc countries are losing skilled and semi-skilled labour and their tax base is being eroded, so when they have big capital projects to fund like the building of a power station Mr. Putin is only too willing to loan them the cash, in turn buying influence in their energy policy as well as having a hold over their political leaders.

Why would you be a care worker in Hungary when you can earn 6 times as much doing the same job in the UK?

My hope is that the UK helps lead reform on immigration policy within the EU. If we simply leave the EU there will be no nation state powerful enough to challenge France and Germany over this issue, so the EU will have a population imbalance leaving a vacuum in the Eastern bloc countries that Russia will fill. It's fine if the economic migrants want to work here for a few years, but what future is there for Romania and Bulgaria if things continue as they are?

Agree with much of your post but Cameron was told in no uncertain terms that freedom of movement was non negotiable by Germany they would rather see us leave which is why he ended up with a deal which makes virtually no difference to immigration. There is no realistic chance of restricting EU immigration in the future.. Albania, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey are all in the queue to join. As you point out many more will be attracted by the higher wages here, immigration will rise inexorably, their countries will have a diminishing tax base, be more reliant on EU handouts meaning ever greater costs to the few member states who are net contributors ..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-David-Cameron-insists-on-migrant-quotas.html

 

[Pavilionaire]

Agree with much of your post but Cameron was told in no uncertain terms that freedom of movement was non negotiable by Germany they would rather see us leave which is why he ended up with a deal which makes virtually no difference to immigration. There is no realistic chance of restricting EU immigration in the future.. Albania, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey are all in the queue to join. As you point out many more will be attracted by the higher wages here, immigration will rise inexorably, their countries will have a diminishing tax base, be more reliant on EU handouts meaning ever greater costs to the few member states who are net contributors ..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-David-Cameron-insists-on-migrant-quotas.html

I agree that, right now, there's very little prospect of restricting people movement but in 5-10 years the landscape might - indeed I think it will - look very different.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Perhaps the answer is to vote out. Its a club that has stuck a finger up at this country and many others. Now is the opportunity to respond. Then lets see what happens

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Cameron was told in no uncertain terms that freedom of movement was non negotiable by Germany they would rather see us leave]

So be it...Jedi

 

[GT49er]

I agree that, right now, there's very little prospect of restricting people movement but in 5-10 years the landscape might - indeed I think it will - look very different.

Bl**dy hell! And you're prepared to risk your future (and your children's and your grandchildren's) on voting for that on the (very) off-chance that's how it'll turn out? And you think Brexit would be a scary leap in the dark..............



Geez!

 

[Pavilionaire]

Bl**dy hell! And you're prepared to risk your future (and your children's and your grandchildren's) on voting for that on the (very) off-chance that's how it'll turn out? And you think Brexit would be a scary leap in the dark..............



Geez!

A bit over-dramatic there! I'm simply suggesting that in the near future the EU might see the issue of free movement of peoples differently as they see the consequences of nation states such as Romania and Hungary losing a huge proportion of their workforce migrate to other EU states.

I get the idea of free movement of peoples but will that still persist if nation states implode because of a lack of population? Weak states in turmoil will invite criminal activity and corruption, weakening the EU from within. it's not in Britain's interests to see that happen whether we're in or out of the EU.

It's highly probable some resistance to the status quo will arise and if that prevails then the EU will be all the better for it. In historical terms the EU is a young union and it will contine to evolve no matter how unlikely that looks in the short term.

 

[Irish_Seagull]

If the EU Referendum was today.

Britain has been made a better place being legislated to by Brussels

The English are very obsessed with this so called Union thing, if I remember correctly the "United" part of the British Union kingdom came about via a sword, pillaging rape and various royals inbreeding

At least in Brussels they are letting you think you have a choice in the matter

Vote to stay.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Britain has been made a better place being legislated to by Brussels

The English are very obsessed with this so called Union thing, if I remember correctly the "United" part of the British Union cane about via a sword, pillaging rape and various royals inbreeding

At least in Brussels they are letting you think you have a choice in the matter

Vote to stay.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for that very helpful post.

 

[Irish_Seagull]

Thanks for that very helpful post.

I'm happy to help

 

[Bladders]

This thread has gone around in circles so much , and some of the posts are so preposterous that I think more whooooooshing and is going on than meets the eye.

Its hard to tell now.

 

[larus]

Britain has been made a better place being legislated to by Brussels

The English are very obsessed with this so called Union thing, if I remember correctly the "United" part of the British Union kingdom came about via a sword, pillaging rape and various royals inbreeding

At least in Brussels they are letting you think you have a choice in the matter

Vote to stay.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's about as relevant to the argument for staying as me saying that we shouldn't be in Europe because of Hitler, Franco and Mussolini.

At least the UK has had democracy for a lot longer than most of these Europena states, so maybe you should try something relevant to the debate.

 

[Irish_Seagull]

That's about as relevant to the argument for staying as me saying that we shouldn't be in Europe because of Hitler, Franco and Mussolini.

At least the UK has had democracy for a lot longer than most of these Europena states, so maybe you should try something relevant to the debate.

England began its union with Scotland, Ireland and Wales by the sword, and occupied in a manner no different than Hitlers Rheich

Mussolini did no different than the Brit elite did around the world, the same goes for Franco

If Mussolini was that bad we wouldn't live in an England heavily influenced by corporatism

The U.K. Democracy is a bit weak when most parties have been caught committing fraud at the ballet box, destroying evidence relating to an unknown number of parliamentarian child rapists, illegal wars, funding of terrorists, setting up coups in various places, starting proxy many wars.

At least in other countries people are far less deluded when it comes to recognising how corrupt their system is

A million marched against the first Iraq war, your mr Blair went to war. Cameron was elected on a promise of "change" lol.

The U.K. Is not a democracy.

If you vote to stay within the EU it just speeds things up a bit

 

[Maldini]

The U.K. Is not a democracy.

It won't be if we vote to remain.

We will be even more governed by those we never elected.How can this be right.
As the years pass we will lose more and more of our ability to self-govern to the point
we may as well not have general elections.

Actually that is what will probably happen when in 30 years time all of the EU
is ruled by one central goverment.