[Politics] Brexit

[yxee]

So just to get this right, you're saying that dark forces will align to force the French to vote in favour of Turkish entry should Turkey ever be in a position to qualify? Presumably you're also saying that the same forces will cause all other EU nations to support Turkish entry? This reminds me of the Brexiter on here who claimed that if Remain won the referendum it would simply prove that the forces of evil had rigged it. We seem to be spinning off into a parallel universe here.

Given a choice of who I believe when it comes to Turkey, I'd go with their leader over a random person on a random football chat room more often than not. Please don't take this personally.

This all strikes me as very naive...

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

This all strikes me as very naive...

I'm mean, what would the leader of Turkey know?

 

[Bladders]

I'm mean, what would the leader of Turkey know?

Don't all politicians lie?

 

[Lincoln Imp]

I'm saying the EU will get it's way come what may (!) .. see Denmark 1992/93 referendums, Ireland 2008/9 referendums, Greece 2015 referendum. If you want to categorize the European establishment as dark forces/forces of evil go ahead, it doesn't change the underlying point/truth.

An early night for a dreadfully early start tomorrow means I haven't got time now to mug up all your referendum points but my daughter in law is Danish and my understanding of their 1992 referendum was that they voted to reject the Maastrict Treaty as it stood and as a result gained opt-outs on a raft of treaty elements covering social affairs, defence and monetary union. These opt-outs were not inconsiderable and were sufficient for the Danes to accept the revised treaty in a subsequent referendum. There have been a couple of referendums since then and in both cases the will of the people has prevailed.

Why do you present the Danish referendums as examples of the EU 'getting its way come what may'? My daughter in law sees them examples of the exact opposite. What is your reasoning for saying that she is wrong and you are right?

 

[johanngull]

There is some very illogical thinking on this thread with regards to TTIP
The EU is negotiating this trade deal for the benefit of the wider community, they are not deliberately being nasty toward the UK
When TTIP comes into force

Yes Health Services will be bought
Yes Health Services will be sold
Yes Health Services will be profited from

but so what this is a good thing especially for the UK.
The NHS is a basket case and will benefit from EU involvement.It is after all simply a service like any other TTIP will allow large corporations to use their financial clout and US/EU rules to help them provide profitable health care to its citizens. This will relax the financial burden on the tax payer,raise the standard of hospitals and create jobs as capitalism always does whilst securing further financial reimbursement for companies that keep the EU ticking over nicely. I don’t hear any of you leavers moaning about the standard of your living that has risen generously thanks to the EU.
The vote leave camp should look up the word community in a dictionary.Each country makes sacrifices for the betterment of the wider picture.Only then can we live with harmonisation and equality for all. We shouldn’t always be about protecting our own interests,the wider community that struggle will benefit from our sacrifices and in turn we benefit culturaly,socially and eventually economically from their involvement
Vote remain,vote to stay in TTIP treaty and EU and vote for common sense.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

An early night for a dreadfully early start tomorrow means I haven't got time now to mug up all your referendum points but my daughter in law is Danish and my understanding of their 1992 referendum was that they voted to reject the Maastrict Treaty as it stood and as a result gained opt-outs on a raft of treaty elements covering social affairs, defence and monetary union. These opt-outs were not inconsiderable and were sufficient for the Danes to accept the revised treaty in a subsequent referendum. There have been a couple of referendums since then and in both cases the will of the people has prevailed.

Why do you present the Danish referendums as examples of the EU 'getting its way come what may'? My daughter in law sees them examples of the exact opposite. What is your reasoning for saying that she is wrong and you are right?

The people blocked a vital EU Treaty so large concessions were offered to get it through. Maastricht was massively important for the furtherance for the EU project which gave the Danes great leverage hence their excellent deal. Incidentally remember how some people say there are red lines and major principles of the EU that are non negotiable under any circumstances ... the Danish example shows this is not necessarily the case, being offered an opt out on economic and monetary union was a huge concession. But in the end the EU got what it wanted.

The Irish went through a similar process first voting no but the EU had to get the Lisbon treaty passed so concessions were granted. Voted yes.

Greece was obviously a different situation but the peoples wishes (rejecting enforced austerity) expressed in a referendum were circumvented because it suited the EU/Eurozone stability. Accept enforced austerity or leave. Rock and a hard place so they Knuckled under, the EU got it's way.

So any future Referendum on Turkish membership that doesn't produce the right result can be circumvented quite easily through the usual horse trading behind the scenes, concessions and depending on which country dares break ranks even threats.

If the EU wants Turkey in and it obviously does (see €4.5 Billion) it will get it's way come what may.

 

[5ways]

The people blocked a vital EU Treaty so large concessions were offered to get it through. Maastricht was massively important for the furtherance for the EU project which gave the Danes great leverage hence their excellent deal. Incidentally remember how some people say there are red lines and major principles of the EU that are non negotiable under any circumstances ... the Danish example shows this is not necessarily the case, being offered an opt out on economic and monetary union was a huge concession. But in the end the EU got what it wanted.

The Irish went through a similar process first voting no but the EU had to get the Lisbon treaty passed so concessions were granted. Voted yes.

Greece was obviously a different situation but the peoples wishes (rejecting enforced austerity) expressed in a referendum were circumvented because it suited the EU/Eurozone stability. Accept enforced austerity or leave. Rock and a hard place so they Knuckled under, the EU got it's way.

So any future Referendum on Turkish membership that doesn't produce the right result can be circumvented quite easily through the usual horse trading behind the scenes, concessions and depending on which country dares break ranks even threats.

If the EU wants Turkey in and it obviously does (see €4.5 Billion) it will get it's way come what may.

It does not obviously want Turkey in. If it did it might try and move it down a process it began in 1987. Many countries have applied and joined since then. Turkey is not out of the starting blocs (eh eh?). Every EU country has a veto. With all the referendums you give as examples it looks like everyone wins, I don't see the problem.

This is simply scaremongering. Also can you provide a source for 4.5 bil I can't find any.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It does not obviously want Turkey in. If it did it might try and move it down a process it began in 1987. Many countries have applied and joined since then. Turkey is not out of the starting blocs (eh eh?). Every EU country has a veto. With all the referendums you give as examples it looks like everyone wins, I don't see the problem.

This is simply scaremongering. Also can you provide a source for 4.5 bil I can't find any.

It is moving down the process for entry which is why the EU is giving them €4.5 Billion (some of it our money) to make further progress. It has according to the BBC European Referendum fact checking site* made the most progress of all of the seven candidate countries. In only four of the 35 Chapters has no preparation/progress been made. As you point out it has been a long process but they are approaching the final straight.

The accession process will be re-energised, with Chapter 33 to be opened during the Dutch Presidency of the Council of the European Union and preparatory work on the opening of other chapters to continue at an accelerated pace;

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-16-963_en.htm?locale=en

* You requested this link before which I gave, if you aren't going to read them ....

In 2014 the EU agreed to use a total of €11.7bn (£9.1bn) from its seven-year budget 2014-2020 to help seven EU candidate countries - Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Turkey, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Kosovo - make political and economic reforms.
Turkey, the largest of the seven countries, will receive a total of €4.5bn over the seven year period. Albania will receive €649m.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36153200

 

[sir albion]

There is some very illogical thinking on this thread with regards to TTIP
The EU is negotiating this trade deal for the benefit of the wider community, they are not deliberately being nasty toward the UK
When TTIP comes into force

Yes Health Services will be bought
Yes Health Services will be sold
Yes Health Services will be profited from

but so what this is a good thing especially for the UK.
The NHS is a basket case and will benefit from EU involvement.It is after all simply a service like any other TTIP will allow large corporations to use their financial clout and US/EU rules to help them provide profitable health care to its citizens. This will relax the financial burden on the tax payer,raise the standard of hospitals and create jobs as capitalism always does whilst securing further financial reimbursement for companies that keep the EU ticking over nicely. I don’t hear any of you leavers moaning about the standard of your living that has risen generously thanks to the EU.
The vote leave camp should look up the word community in a dictionary.Each country makes sacrifices for the betterment of the wider picture.Only then can we live with harmonisation and equality for all. We shouldn’t always be about protecting our own interests,the wider community that struggle will benefit from our sacrifices and in turn we benefit culturaly,socially and eventually economically from their involvement
Vote remain,vote to stay in TTIP treaty and EU and vote for common sense.

This won't benefit the average joe on the street as you'll end up paying more for a service and the shareholders will rake it in...How the hell will this be a good thing?
You won't get a better service unless you pay for it and most can't afford that in this country.The NHS just needs a complete overhaul as it spends way to much than it should on consultants and agency staff etc etc.

It's all about self gain with privatisation and we don't want the NHS sold down the river to foreign investors.

 

[heathgate]

On June 23rd we will make one of the most important decisions in this country's history, which will set how we are governed for decades. And yet I am staggered by the lack of understanding I hear about how the EU works. Have a read:

1. Virtually all laws in the EU are drawn up by the Commission. The Commission is made up exclusively of unelected career bureaucrats.
2. Laws are approved by the EU parliament, which is effectively a rubber-stamp, as it rarely rejects laws proposed by the Commission. This is not really surprising as it is constitutionally set up this way.
3. Laws are also approved by the Council of Ministers, which is made up of politicians from the 28 member countries. All significant policy areas are voted on using 'Qualified Majority Voting', which means laws can be imposed on unwilling member states.
4. ALL laws passed by our government in Westminster are subservient to EU law. If the Commission decides a UK law is not compatible with EU law, it can strike the UK law down in an action in the European Court of Justice. This has happened frequently in recent years.
5. EU enthusiasts make no secret of the fact that the phrase 'ever closer union' means an eventual United States of Europe.
6. A United States of Europe inevitably means a single currency for all states and all meaningful legislative power transferring to the unelected Commission.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[JC Footy Genius]

And we're back ....





Another tour de force from Boris

 

[portslade seagull]

Another tour de force from Boris

Trust him more than Cameron and his merry band of bandits and story tellers

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Trust him more than Cameron and his merry band of bandits and story tellers

I had a modicum of respect for Cameron before this Referendum process now It's obvious he is an unprincipled shyster treating the UK population like idiots .. Boris all the way for me.

 

[pb21]

I had a modicum of respect for Cameron before this Referendum process now It's obvious he is an unprincipled shyster treating the UK population like idiots .. Boris all the way for me.

It's been obvious to me for the past decade.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It's been obvious to me for the past decade.

Was waiting for that response!

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Sorry chaps, you all seem to be talking to yourselves.

 

[Soulman]

Go on Boris.

 

[Maldini]

I can't wait for the last two weeks.That's when desperate Dave is really going to come out with the tosh.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Ex Intelligence chiefs say our security is less safe if we leave. There you go, the experts have spoken. Over to the non experts

 

[dangull]

The BBC establishment seems to be pro EU.

The scare tactics, similar to if we don't join the EURO, are economy will collapse will probably win the day.

I don't know how we survived for 100's of years before the EU was founded. We even built a world empire in that time.

Still, we can look forward to unlimited immigration in the future, and the influx of Turkey, and more radical muslims to enter the country.