[Politics] Brexit

[Blue Valkyrie]

You keep saying this but it goes against what a hell of a lot of leavers voted for. You'd still have freedom of movement for people, the vast majority of EU laws (verbatim) and still be paying a hell of a lot to Brussels. You might think this is better than our current deal but many, many voters wouldn't (on both sides).

Yes, I agree. There has been a hatchet job from all sides on the golden outcome I see. Peoples' Vote zealots, ERG zealots - an unholy alliance - because if it entered mainstream acceptance they'd both be finished.

That doesn't mean give up on this future, though - while the path to it is still possible, after a highly likely initial false start.

 

[beorhthelm]

You keep saying this but it goes against what a hell of a lot of leavers voted for. You'd still have freedom of movement for people, the vast majority of EU laws (verbatim) and still be paying a hell of a lot to Brussels. You might think this is better than our current deal but many, many voters wouldn't (on both sides).

i think the ++ would be outside Schengen, requiring no change. this would offer continued control of borders. throw in reduced contributions and outside customs union able to have own trade deals, and you meet most the original criteria for leave. this is of course hopelessly pragmatic and ideologically incompatible with where a lot of leave has gone post referendum.

 

[A1X]

Yes, I agree. There has been a hatchet job from all sides on the golden outcome I see. Peoples' Vote zealots, ERG zealots - an unholy alliance - because if it entered mainstream acceptance they'd both be finished.

That doesn't mean give up on this future, though - while the path to it is still possible, after a highly likely initial false start.

Out of interest what are the entry requirements for EFTA, and is it as time consuming as entry to the EU?

 

[Stat Brother]

Number of days since Brexit referendum: 1215

Number of days to scrutinise Brexit deal: 1 evening

 

[Is it PotG?]

Number of days since Brexit referendum: 1215

Number of days to scrutinise Brexit deal: 1 evening

Would have been longer if Mr Bercow had allowed it yesterday.

Possibly a little short sighted or spiteful?

 

[nicko31]

i think the ++ would be outside Schengen, requiring no change. this would offer continued control of borders. throw in reduced contributions and outside customs union able to have own trade deals, and you meet most the original criteria for leave. this is of course hopelessly pragmatic and ideologically incompatible with where a lot of leave has gone post referendum.

Now we've got the amazing Lizz Truss running the show

What do new trade deal do you find the most exciting?

Just a country and what we are going to sell them will do, I need to take stock on how far we've come....

 

[A1X]

Would have been longer if Mr Bercow had allowed it yesterday.

Possibly a little short sighted or spiteful?

No it wouldn't, what the Government were planning was a vote to accept it before it had been released, meaning it would have been less time (into minus numbers).

 

[Rodney Thomas]

i think the ++ would be outside Schengen, requiring no change. this would offer continued control of borders. throw in reduced contributions and outside customs union able to have own trade deals, and you meet most the original criteria for leave. this is of course hopelessly pragmatic and ideologically incompatible with where a lot of leave has gone post referendum.

Out of Schengan or not you still have FoM though, that was undeniably a huge leave vote winner. You also still have a vast amount of EU laws that require verbatim adoption, hardly 'taking back control'. I'm also unconvinced that merely reducing contributions would satisfy many who voted leave, lets face it the big red bus didn't give a lot of nuance regarding the money we spend to the EU.

Don't get me wrong, a Switzerland type would be find by me as a remainer. I would rather remain of course but I struggle with the idea [MENTION=25402]Blue Valkyrie[/MENTION] is pushing that such a deal 1) it is the best way to respect the referendum and 2) that it is better than remaining in our current state.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Out of interest what are the entry requirements for EFTA, and is it as time consuming as entry to the EU?

We put a case to the current members - Iceland, Switzerland, Leichtenstein and Norway - and they decide. Do the club members let us in ? Well we ignore 1 member of the Norway Parliament who doesn't want us - the hatchet job always spins this as "Norway doesn't want us".

It could be done easily, or they may need persuading on detail. Not paying our EU exit bill would possibly not be a great thing to have on our application form, for example. There would be some in EFTA who could have reservations, but the mood music I have seen seems reasonable.

We recently sent a delegation to Switzerland which was positive. Apparently, we arn't pursuing it now - but is that just politically convenient before the withdrawal bill ? Is the subsequent pivot so unlikely ?

 

[Greg Bobkin]

I honestly think that the country is stuck; it has lost sight of what Brexit is really all about and has now firmly become a game of party politics, rather than politicians actually trying to stand back, thinking about what they're doing and WHY.

I saw a tweet from a Labour MEP having a pop at another labour MP for voting for the 'great new deal', saying they are a disgrace to the party. The same happens on the other side and all the inter-party fighting is pretty tedious. I get the democracy, sovereignty and all that BS, but these people are so caught up in the shitshow that I honest don't think they are capable of making an informed, impartial and objective decision on the whole thing.

So what happens? Blindly pass through the deal and hope for the best? Very risky, with a SLIGHT chance we will be ok at some point in the future.

Crash out with no deal? Forget that – no-one REALLY wants that, despite what they might say.

An extension beyond 31st October? Arguably the most likely, but it just kicks the can down the road. Again.

Second referendum? Possibly, but it's possibly it will be as close as last time, which leaves the country still divided. And what's to say that if the Blonde Buffoon doesn't get his own way, he'll dismiss it as 'advisory' (as so many people highlight about the first one) and keep quiet about the 'will of the people' schtick (which the OTHER side keep banging on about)?

Revoking A50 and binning the whole idea? Potentially damaging too, if the least worst option? We might find a change of leadership (and/or party) would try and bring everyone together along the lines of 'we tried to get a good outcome but ultimately it wasn't as good as what we have, so let's stick with it'. Doubt it will appease many staunch Brexiteers though.

I guess one thing would be that the whole issue would go away, whereas with agreement of a deal, it would drag on and on and then potentially leave with no deal anyway. Given the delegations of MPs who were meant to negotiate with the EU have shown they're pretty useless at agreeing the basics, I wouldn't have much faith in them doing a better job when shit gets real.

I'm not sure how much of a difference a general election would make either. Brexit has shown people to be conservative (in the non-political sense) and stubborn, so they're likely to vote in the same old people (or type of people) for the next term.

Basically the country is a mess and we won't be seeing much harmony or feeling of being 'United' any time soon. IMO, like.

 

[nicko31]

No it wouldn't, what the Government were planning was a vote to accept it before it had been released, meaning it would have been less time (into minus numbers).

We need the extension, there isn't enough time to properly scrutinise. Every hour something new is being discovered in the text. Any MP waving through the timetable isn't doing their job properly on behalf of their constituents

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Brexiteers, fill your boots!

“Scientists growing human brains”

https://www.theguardian.com/science...-crossed-ethical-line-in-growing-human-brains

 

[nicko31]

UK borrowing in Sept, £9.4B, borrowing for 1st half of the year up a fifth.

And that's before the costs of Brexit have taken their toll.

Wait for the war on the poor budget in a couple of weeks

 

[hans kraay fan club]

UK borrowing in Sept, £9.4B, borrowing for 1st half of the year up a fifth.

And that's before the costs of Brexit have taken their toll.

Wait for the war on the poor budget in a couple of weeks

And still the propaganda machine will convince the sheep that the Tories are the party of financial security, and that Commie Corbyn is not to be trusted with the purse-strings.

 

[zefarelly]

Basically the country is a mess and we won't be seeing much harmony or feeling of being 'United' any time soon. IMO, like.

Yep . . . .vivae la revolution, its coming . . . .

 

[BBassic]

Brexiteers, fill your boots!

“Scientists growing human brains”

https://www.theguardian.com/science...-crossed-ethical-line-in-growing-human-brains

That is terrifying and awesome all at once.

I'm a fan of the idea of a medically / technologically driven evolution of humanity but that did send some chills down my spine.

 

[Eeyore]

First call on James O'Brien' s LBC show was an absolute classic, absolute blind faith in the " Deal " and Johnson despite not knowing anything about the deal!

It is worrying that when questioned on the whys and hows that it is clear folk don't know enough about it.

Also worrying that they just repeat paper headlines.

That's why I'm against a second referendum. Elected representatives are paid to understand this stuff, it's not my job.

That said, having read some of it, I do think they should have signed up to the May deal. I've not changed my view on that one.

 

[Stat Brother]

Classic Moggy.

[tweet]1186331068892405761[/tweet]

 

[nicko31]

It is worrying that when questioned on the whys and hows that it is clear folk don't know enough about it.

Also worrying that they just repeat paper headlines.

That's why I'm against a second referendum. Elected representatives are paid to understand this stuff, it's not my job.

That said, having read some of it, I do think they should have signed up to the May deal. I've not changed my view on that one.

Meanwhile we have MP's like Labour's Jim Fitzpatrick that say they will vote for the agreement without even reading it. That is a dereliction of duty, nothing else

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

That is terrifying and awesome all at once.

I'm a fan of the idea of a medically / technologically driven evolution of humanity but that did send some chills down my spine.

You’re right. On reflection, the idea of giving a brain to a Brexiteer is terrifying.