[Politics] Brexit

[Lever]

Letting us vote on this with no real understanding of the consequences was a massive feck up, but we did and however reasonable another referendum, for the reasons you give, would be it would result in fighting in the streets, should the vote be for remain.

You may be right but democracy (which you clearly support strongly) shouldn't shrink at the threat of insurrection, should it? I notice that you recognise that violence would be the outcome of a Remain majority referendum now.... so in your mind does that threat come from only one side of the argument or would Remain voters riot in the event of Brexit confirmation? I am interested to know your thoughts....

 

[Icy Gull]

Sorry but the language you use gives you away; I don't think anyone has a solution but we need to find a compromise that we can all live with.
I think that you are being disingenuous to describe yourself formally as an ardent Remainer since (apparently out of sheer frustration....) you have altered your position. Speaking of changing our minds, Conservative MPs have been doing it in droves over the past weeks.... so why are voters prohibited from showing that they have too?

Compromise? Great idea but cloud cuckoo land

 

[JC Footy Genius]

The fault lies squarely with the British electorate. They elected the MPs in Parliament, while a slim majority swallowed the line they were span and voted for Brexit. Let's not forget the 13 million who didn't bother to vote in the most important referendum in over 40 years.

Whatever shit we have coming is our responsibility. Our casually racist, ideas above our station, empirical, nostalgic, superior attitude which pervades society has led to this position. To a greater or lesser degree we are all responsible for this and the chickens are about to come home to roost.

It is time for this nation to wake up and smell the coffee. We are not a United Kingdom, there is no Empire, no Special Relationship with the USA, Europe are our friends but we treat them like shit. The world doesn't listen to Britain anymore and the only place we did have a voice was within the EU where we used to be one of 3 great nations driving the project.

If we are the weak, divided, sh*t, prejudiced nation you describe then shirley the MP's are to blame for overwhelmingly voting to let the racist, empire loving, thickies, <insert prejudiced, patronising trope here> have a vote in a referendum. But thanks for being the latest remainer in knowing the motives (all terrible obvs) of all 17.4 million leave voters ... once again showing those that describe themselves as 'liberal' are some of the most prejudiced, intolerant people in this country.

It's time just under half the country woke up and realised most nations in the world don't have to stay locked inside a political union to prosper and succeed in the world. For the UK 'driving' the EU project see applying the brakes at every opportunity while France/Germany with a majority of other passengers continually direct the car to a destination we don't want. We can do better and we will.

 

[nwgull]

Again I ask the Brexiteers on here:-

Is this your language?
Do they speak for you?

[tweet]1181607769486626818[/tweet]

Blows away any notion that the Leave vote wasn’t motivated to a significant degree by nationalism and racism. The Leave neanderthals will be loving this sort of jingoistic shit though.

 

[Icy Gull]

You may be right but democracy (which you clearly support strongly) shouldn't shrink at the threat of insurrection, should it? I notice that you recognise that violence would be the outcome of a Remain majority referendum now.... so in your mind does that threat come from only one side of the argument or would Remain voters riot in the event of Brexit confirmation? I am interested to know your thoughts....

Hard to say as I think we’d vote to remain but if we didn’t I can’t see a reason for remainers to riot

 

[Lever]

Compromise? Great idea but cloud cuckoo land

The compromise was the May deal, unpopular with different factions for a range of diverse reasons, but still a compromise.

A decision without another final referendum or similar confirmation would mean 48% of the voters will be entirely marginalised.

 

[Lever]

Hard to say as I think we’d vote to remain but if we didn’t I can’t see a reason for remainers to riot

So why should Leavers riot in the event of a clear Remain majority?

 

[Icy Gull]

So why should Leavers riot in the event of a clear Remain majority?

It’s not the best of three is it? We voted to leave, we should leave imo. I don’t agree with the original referendum result but I accept it.

I am just a layman, my opinions are just that, they carry no weight.

 

[beorhthelm]

A decision without another final referendum or similar confirmation would mean 48% of the voters will be entirely marginalised.

i wonder, if the result of 2nd ref were 52/48 in favour to remain, does that mean 48% are marginalised and is that OK?

 

[Lever]

It’s not the best of three is it? We voted to leave, we should leave imo. I don’t agree with the original referendum result but I accept it.

I am just a layman, my opinions are just that, they carry no weight.

Your opinions carry as much weight as anyone else's but I think your claim that you were once 'ardent' in wishing to Remain is a little suspect; did you really think through your reasons? The arguments for having a confirmatory vote/final referendum are well documented as is your standard Brexiter (best of three?) rebuttal. A final referendum with 'forget the whole thing' included on the ballot paper is understandably unpopular but may be the best option left.

 

[nwgull]

You think the EU can cope with us leaving?

The EU 27 current has about 8% of its exports to the U.K. The U.K. has about 46% of its exports to the EU and a significant percentage to other countries that have trade deals with the EU.

EU products being hit with tariffs for exports to the U.K. won’t be ideal for them, but at only 8% and all their other trade deals remaining intact, they will cope. We on the other hand will be ****ed.

 

[Lever]

i wonder, if the result of 2nd ref were 52/48 in favour to remain, does that mean 48% are marginalised and is that OK?

I understand the logic but it doesn't totally follow. This is a tory made mess and Cameron should have introduced a threshold of say 60% for any change; now we should consider it.
He didn't - and 52% to 48% is not a sufficient mandate for either side of the argument. To carry on with such monumental changes without sufficient support is unacceptable.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

I know but sometimes you just have to face reality, the EU appear to be making absolutely no concessions so feck ‘em

I’ve had enough of this shit and stringing it out any longer with no hope of any sort of resolution to suit them and us is madness.

You have fallen for the Mendacious Johnson spin.

On the other hand, there is a valid point. An independent sovereign state must be able to decide whether it is in a customs union or not with the EU.

My view - throw the DUP under the bus, and put the customs boundary in the Irish Sea. Throw in an Irish re-unification referendum if need be. Part of the price of Brexit, and solves a lot of the problems.

 

[Icy Gull]

The EU 27 current has about 8% of its exports to the U.K. The U.K. has about 46% of its exports to the EU and a significant percentage to other countries that have trade deals with the EU.

EU products being hit with tariffs for exports to the U.K. won’t be ideal for them, but at only 8% and all their other trade deals remaining intact, they will cope. We on the other hand will be ****ed.

So do you know how much we pay to the EU in comparison to other countries? I don’t so genuine question. I have always believed that we contribute much more than we take out? I look at how much was thrown at Spain and Ireland and wonder if we ever had as much back?

Will the EU really not miss our contributions?

 

[Icy Gull]

You have fallen for the Mendacious Johnson spin.

On the other hand, there is a valid point. An independent sovereign state must be able to decide whether it is in a customs union or not with the EU.

My view - throw the DUP under the bus, and put the customs boundary in the Irish Sea. Throw in an Irish re-unification referendum if need be. Part of the price of Brexit, and solves a lot of the problems.

I don’t think I am falling for anything I just feel exasperation at how long this is dragging out with no reasonable resolution that I am aware of.

I too am of the opinion that we should not be overly concerned about Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and certainly shouldn’t be making it a make or break part of any deal.

 

[pb21]

You have fallen for the Mendacious Johnson spin.

On the other hand, there is a valid point. An independent sovereign state must be able to decide whether it is in a customs union or not with the EU.

My view - throw the DUP under the bus, and put the customs boundary in the Irish Sea. Throw in an Irish re-unification referendum if need be. Part of the price of Brexit, and solves a lot of the problems.

On the sovereign state customs union point I would say you are correct, but that decision will always have to be be based and balanced upon the political and economic realities, and the expectations/responsibilities that a sovereign state has.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

I am no fan of Johnson and I am not blaming the EU but how do you suggest we proceed? The EU took the piss out of May and how long do we string this out? Do you see a solution? Another referendum would make a mockery of democracy (however misguided, imo) and lead to even more division especially if we voted remain.

We are between a rock and a hard place and I’m yet to hear a convincing argument to string this out any longer. Do you have one?

May took the piss out of May. In my view she should have done things enormously differently if she (or anyone else) was to make a go of BREXIT. Like talking to people she perhaps didn't want to talk to - like Corbyn, Sturgeon at al - rather than concentrating on keeping her own party together.... which was always going to end in disaster.

And all along the EU can't really do anything until we give them something to respond to.

 

[Lever]

So do you know how much we pay to the EU in comparison to other countries? I don’t so genuine question. I have always believed that we contribute much more than we take out? I look at how much was thrown at Spain and Ireland and wonder if we ever had as much back?

Will the EU really not miss our contributions?

.... and yet you say you were an unequivocal Remain voter?

 

[Motogull]

You've gotta hand it to Alexander Boris de Piffle bungle**** Johnson. He's going to have the last laugh. We will leave at the end of the month and he will be beside himself. I've had enough of his insincere interviews as he smirks his way through them. He's taking the piss.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

You've gotta hand it to Alexander Boris de Piffle bungle**** Johnson. He's going to have the last laugh. We will leave at the end of the month and he will be beside himself. I've had enough of his insincere interviews as he smirks his way through them. He's taking the piss.

Goebbels - the King of Propaganda - was reputed to have said something along the lines of "If you tell a lie often enough and loudly enough, people will believe it"

I am not sure he actually said that, but it is how Nazi Germany worked and, while I am not comparing this lot to Nazi Germany, that is what has been happening in particular over the last few weeks.....