[Politics] Brexit

[The Clamp]

Like I said, when you have a moment.

I’m not into the politics of emotion. I deal in facts. Brexit, especially a No Deal will do immense harm to our country. Referendums are advisory and so we have no obligation to accept the outcomes.
This kind of referendum is generational, a legacy vote. It’s outcome would stay in place for a long, long time. Those who oppose it need it stopped before it’s implemented.
The results of a general election last at most 4-5 years. If I don’t like the result, I can live with it and have another chance to change it in a few short years. I certainly won’t protest about it.
Nobody has seriously protested a democratic general election result in the past and there is no reason they would in the future.
In short, you are comparing apples and oranges. It shows you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the political climate right now and of politics in general.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, it’s my last full day off before going on nights and I have life admin to catch up on. Washing the bedsheets and towels today. Full de-spunk.
Layaz Playaz

 

[WATFORD zero]

Of course it would. But will never happen. Not only would it be likely to remove the decision that the people driving it want but as a lot of the Brexiteers say, it would ruin trust in democracy. You, I and a large swathe of people see that the reality of what leaving will mean is nothing like what a lot of people voted for. But people voted in a rare chance to have the will of the majority actually enacted. Some people may well have known exactly what they were voting for but I doubt they were many. The problem is the large body of people that want us to leave without a deal because they chose to leave. They either don't believe the warnings of what is likely to happen or don't care. Some of the vox pops have been staggering. The sheep farmer who seemed to know it would kill his business but wanted to leave anyway. The woman who thought it would do the country good to go short of things. However sensible a second referendum would be, you split the country for a long, long time by doing it.

Whichever way we go, we are Probably the best outcome is leaving with a deal of some sort that doesn't cripple us and just taking our medicine. But that seems the least likely option at present. The only crumb of comfort I can take is watching the massive arse Bercow upsetting the other massive arses. And being thankful that I pick up my next batch of blood pressure medication on 29th October so I might have 2 months grace.

I agree with the vast majority of what you say and the country will be split for a long long time whatever.

If we go soft Brexit, the Hard Brexiteers will still be up in arms and claim that the majority and referendum were ignored and nobody will know whether that's true or not. (The problem with having no definition of 'leave' in the first referendum).

If we go second referendum, whoever doesn't get what they want will be up in arms, but at least there is a defence that we went with the majority in a defined referendum.

 

[pb21]

If you ever get a moment away from your self righteousness and hubris, and can for a moment seperate your politics from your principles and think clearly, just for a moment, I invite you to have a think about that.

Are you being deliberately ironic?

This sentence and your recent posts more generally have been dripping in self righteousness and hubris.

 

[Gwylan]

We've been in the EU for 46 years.

Don't forget that before we joined the EEC, we were in EFTA for 13 years so already had a variety of other trade agreements - so have nearly 60 years of agreements to unpick

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Here's what we've done.

We've taught young people, many for whom this whole debacle was their first view of how politics works, that it's Ok to reject a democratic result. Using arguments like "people didn't know what they were voting for", "the vote was based on lies, it was illegal" etc.

Fast forward a generation or two.

People will feel it's legitimate to refuse to accept the result of a general election in the same way. Maybe your guy or girl will win the election, and opponents, maybe even the actual opposing candidate and their party, will refuse to accept the result.

You will cry foul, you will hold up the principles of democracy and losers consent. Few will remember what that actually looks like, and those who do will point to this time, call you a hypocrite, tell you that you didn't know what you were voting for in the election, and carry on righteously declaring that despite the actual vote count, you didn't win, or if you did it doesn't matter.

Well done you.

Those who have done this have destroyed what so many fought and died for. We've lost it, not after some invasion, or some international conflict against fascists, but self inflicted. From within, to ourselves.

If you ever get a moment away from your self righteousness and hubris, and can for a moment seperate your politics from your principles and think clearly, just for a moment, I invite you to have a think about that.

Yep, War reference.

Standard.

What really lost it was the cheating by the leave group and the illegal activities

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Don't forget that before we joined the EEC, we were in EFTA for 13 years so already had a variety of other trade agreements - so have nearly 60 years of agreements to unpick

This is why I really don't feel it is an unreasonable default that when we leave the EU, we go back to the situation before we joined, and hence re-join EFTA.

( Some goon will now repeat the lie that *Norway don't want us* just because 1 Norwegian backbencher said so ).

 

[lawros left foot]

We've been in the EU for 46 years. Nearly five decades of interwoven agreements across every facet of society (trade, politics, culture, law...). When the public and/or politicians/or Prime Ministers say "We just want this over with" or "We have to get on with it" the irony is that October 31st (if it ever happens) is just the start of 10 years of unpicking and rebuilding said agreements. Brexit only really starts on or after 31st October (if that date is adhered to). In 1973 there were only 6 members of the EC to negotiate with (and that was difficult enough). There are now 27. Irrespective of your position on the referendum - Brexit will continue to dominate these islands for another decade. The end of the beginning or the beginning of the end?[/QUOTE


Double post

 

[lawros left foot]

We've been in the EU for 46 years. Nearly five decades of interwoven agreements across every facet of society (trade, politics, culture, law...). When the public and/or politicians/or Prime Ministers say "We just want this over with" or "We have to get on with it" the irony is that October 31st (if it ever happens) is just the start of 10 years of unpicking and rebuilding said agreements. Brexit only really starts on or after 31st October (if that date is adhered to). In 1973 there were only 6 members of the EC to negotiate with (and that was difficult enough). There are now 27. Irrespective of your position on the referendum - Brexit will continue to dominate these islands for another decade. The end of the beginning or the beginning of the end?

There are over 750 treaties that we are signatories under the auspices of the E.U. If we leave without a deal we cease to be a signatory of any of these treaties, covering, Defence , Policing, trade, politics,science, medicine, and free movement. These treaties don’t only cover our neighbours in Europe, but globally nations who have treaties with the E.U. If we leave at 11pm on 31/1019, we lose all the benefits of these treaties, immediately, no cooling off period, a complete cessation of those agreements.


Seems like a bad idea to me.

 

[Grombleton]

I thought it was the Remain side that were supposed to be the bedwetters?

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

We've been in the EU for 46 years. Nearly five decades of interwoven agreements across every facet of society (trade, politics, culture, law...). When the public and/or politicians/or Prime Ministers say "We just want this over with" or "We have to get on with it" the irony is that October 31st (if it ever happens) is just the start of 10 years of unpicking and rebuilding said agreements. Brexit only really starts on or after 31st October (if that date is adhered to). In 1973 there were only 6 members of the EC to negotiate with (and that was difficult enough). There are now 27. Irrespective of your position on the referendum - Brexit will continue to dominate these islands for another decade. The end of the beginning or the beginning of the end?

Nearly 46 years a mere drop in the ocean, ha ha ha how did we ever cope before LEAVE MEANS
LEAVE
Regards
DF

 

[Seaber]

Assuming the election motion is allowed back on Monday, I can't see Johnson winning it.
I can't see Johnson trying to bring a bill for an election as an alternative, as it's subject to amendments and Lords scrutiny, so control of the date is lost.
I can't see him bringing a motion of no confidence in his own Government because of how it would look.
Assuming prorogation goes ahead, along with the conferences, I can't see come October how his Queens Speech passes, so we're then into no confidence territory and a subsequent election in November. That still leaves the issue of no deal to tidy up. What does he do?

1. Go cap in hand, do what parliament have said and fight the election the month after?
2. Try and resurrect the withdrawal agreement?
3. Try and dig in, not appoint a UK commissioner in the hope The EU expel us as a result and trash The UK's international reputation even further?
4. As he'd rather die in a ditch, could he resign as PM pending an election in the hope that Corbyn is the one to get the extension from The EU and throw that at him in the subsequent election?
5. Just Say - Ra, ra, ra, tally ho, almost scored a goal in the wall game at Eton once, it's all tremendous jolly good fun what-what-what, blah-blah-blah, our own free trade deals with Nyasaland, blah-blah-blah, they all look the same, Jeremy Corbyn is an oik who ought to know his place, blah-blah-blah, negotiations with our EU chums, tremendous etc - basically he hasn't a clue.
6. Or something else?

At the moment I'm thinking he'll just do No.5.

Nail on the head, assuming the Opposition parties remain united. Prorogation has meant the Government have shot themselves in the foot, and an attempt to repeal it will show the power grab for what it was, meaning the Government have shot themselves in the other foot whilst having their hands tied behind their back. To be honest, that's so bewilderingly incompetent it's almost impressive.

However, if they do repeal the suspension, that gives them so much more time to try to play their way out of this mess and try to divide and goad the Opposition. They may well be desperate enough to try it.

 

[albion68]

I’m not into the politics of emotion. I deal in facts. Brexit, especially a No Deal will do immense harm to our country. Referendums are advisory and so we have no obligation to accept the outcomes.
This kind of referendum is generational, a legacy vote. It’s outcome would stay in place for a long, long time. Those who oppose it need it stopped before it’s implemented.
The results of a general election last at most 4-5 years. If I don’t like the result, I can live with it and have another chance to change it in a few short years. I certainly won’t protest about it.
Nobody has seriously protested a democratic general election result in the past and there is no reason they would in the future.
In short, you are comparing apples and oranges. It shows you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the political climate right now and of politics in general.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, it’s my last full day off before going on nights and I have life admin to catch up on. Washing the bedsheets and towels today. Full de-spunk.
Layaz Playaz

If i can remember 2016 and the weeks of campaigning Leave or Remain in the Media ,and the arguments on TV between politicians and questions by the Public i can`t recall everybody being told about this serious Referendum as being just advisory.

 

[Springal]

The moron thickos of UKIP pointing out that because Wetherspoons have reduced the price of beer by 20p this is an example of how prices can be reduced when we leave the EU....

Except they've already done it while we are still in the EU?

 

[hans kraay fan club]

If i can remember 2016 and the weeks of campaigning Leave or Remain in the Media ,and the arguments on TV between politicians and questions by the Public i can`t recall everybody being told about this serious Referendum as being just advisory.

You weren't paying much attention then.

 

[The Clamp]

If i can remember 2016 and the weeks of campaigning Leave or Remain in the Media ,and the arguments on TV between politicians and questions by the Public i can`t recall everybody being told about this serious Referendum as being just advisory.

Well it was certainly a subject that was discussed openly. But I hardly think the Leave campaign was going to put that on one of their busses. A very, very little amount of research would show you there were no legally binding set of actions we were obliged to carry out after the result was in.

From the government’s own website;
Legislative consequences. The act made no provision for the result to be legally binding on the government or on any future government. ... The act did not specify any specific consequences that would follow the result of the referendum.

 

[Ernest]

[tweet]1169932045696589825[/tweet]

 

[Stat Brother]

If i can remember 2016 and the weeks of campaigning Leave or Remain in the Media ,and the arguments on TV between politicians and questions by the Public i can`t recall everybody being told about this serious Referendum as being just advisory.

Or that Northern Ireland would be such a massive part of the negotiations.

 

[albion68]

You weren't paying much attention then.

OK it was 3 years ago but ,of course there might be something written down somewhere but the impression was the vote would be implemented and you know that is the case .

 

[Razzoo]

OK it was 3 years ago but ,of course there might be something written down somewhere but the impression was the vote would be implemented and you know that is the case .

The government spent nearly 9.5 million on sending out a leaflet to each household in the UK telling us how important that voting the right way (Remain) was. But no it really wasn't going to matter too much how we voted.

 

[DFL JCL]

This may have already been asked, but what happens if Boris loses the vote on Monday. Fails to negotiate a deal prior to the 31st October. And then resigns on 31st October without submitting the request for an extension to the EU. Is there a time limit by which he must legally submit the extension request to the EU. If not, who would submit the extension request, and is there a chance that we could just leave the EU on a no deal basis by default?