[Politics] Brexit

[Dick Swiveller]

Question 1 has already been done. I'm all for a referendum on Question 2, but, if No Deal wins do you really think Parliament and the hardcore remoaners would accept it?

They wouldn't like it but it would be the will of the people after the whole sorry state of affairs from the last 3 years has played out. It is a simple premise as to why there is a belief that a second referendum is needed. That premise is that the original question was a stupid binary question voted for on the basis of lies and spin from both sides as to what would happen if we leave. Having gone through the process, there isn't much more assumption that can be spun. A referendum now would be based on as much information as the public would every likely to have on the options.

I know why you don't like the idea but I can't believe you don't understand the logic. And the most probable reason you don't like the idea is that you believe the public have changed their mind enough to produce a result you don't want. My views on the whole subject are out there if you care to look but in summary I voted remain on instinct because of the lies from both sides during the campaign. I was willing to listen to both sides as I could see the pros and cons of the EU but even as someone not really into politics, I could see that you couldn't just leave and keep the benefits as was being suggested. But there was no real debate on facts - just bluster, scaremongering and lies. So I voted for better the devil you know. I am in no way a "remoaner", as you can't help yourself spouting, but what I am very concerned about is a No Deal. If we leave, we leave but this lemming like "We voted for it so we get it" attitude from large swathes of people is startling. People are willing to suffer or have large numbers of other people suffer because it is "what we voted for".

The fact Cameron is sat counting his book money whilst being 100% responsible for the whole thing is galling beyond belief. A binary question for such an emotive, complex and at the time, unpredictable scenario is unforgivable and has led to this cluster****.

 

[ManOfSussex]

It wouldn't have been a problem if we'd gone for a soft Brexit, which was the only realistic option, but I don't recall a big deal being made of how we couldn't have a hard Brexit. Surely Ireland and Northern Ireland knew about it?

Enda Kenny did politely advise all Irish citizens living in The UK to vote remain.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Well the choice is yours

Take democracy away from MPs and give it back to the people

or

Don't do anything, just moan about it and stop voting

"Take democracy away from MPs and give it back to the people"

Shows the problem doesn't it.

It's not meant to be us vs them, and while it is, they will always win. They gave us the decision, then they took it back.

I won't moan, but I won't vote either.

"The table is tilted folks, the game is rigged." - George Carlin.

Righty O

Maybe you can't see through all this BS, but I can.

Parliament will never allow us to actually leave the EU. They don't want us to leave, and they will always have the final say.

No, I thought Parliamentary democracy, where parliamentarians attended parliament to fulfil their promises to represent the views of the people, was what we had.

I was wrong.

A ruling class masquerading as a Parliamentary democracy is what we have, and that is pointless.

Believing that the people of this country have a say in their own destiny was nieve and foolish of me, and if you still believe that, in the face of everything we have seen, then you are just as nieve and foolish as I was. Or maybe you don't care, because you are getting your own way. On this. For now. The time will come when you too will expressely declare your instruction to your representitives.

Only to find, as we have, that they have no intention of representing you at all.

Well, that lasted a long while

 

[dingodan]

Righty O

Oh sorry, the nuances of interpersonal conversation are lost in text posted on the internet. I'm not moaning, I don't moan.

Those are just the facts.

 

[Bob!]

Yes, it's May's deal + the extras agreed with Labour. May's resignation killed it.

Did the extras ever get announced?

what were they?

 

[Stat Brother]

Plus the Lib Dems already have a candidate selected for Liverpool Wavertree at the next election, though with a 80% Labour vote share I doubt she'll be standing there again.

There was an article doing the rounds, a couple of weeks ago, directly linking Liverpool being massively Remain because of the city's boycott of The Sun.

 

[highflyer]

Maybe you can't see through all this BS, but I can.

Parliament will never allow us to actually leave the EU. They don't want us to leave, and they will always have the final say.

We have a representative democracy.

You won't please all the people all the time, but this is how it works. We elect MPs to represent us. based on a mix of their stated ideology, party loyalties, local interests and personal views. They make a judgement on each decision on a case by case basis. If a majority of constituents are unhappy with the judgements they take on how to balance those factors, then they are voted out.

What would you have in it's place? Because I'm not sure what options there are that work better?

It seems that there are a lot of people that have never really thought much about what democracy actually is and how it works.
'Democracy' is complex and difficult to implement. It has many different forms, which have taken centuries to evolve, and none are anywhere near perfect.

Democracy isn't, and can't be, defined on the basis of ONE non-binding referendum. I mean you'd need to be really dim to think that, right?

 

[hans kraay fan club]

No, I thought Parliamentary democracy, where parliamentarians attended parliament to fulfil their promises to represent the views of the people, was what we had.

I was wrong.

A ruling class masquerading as a Parliamentary democracy is what we have, and that is pointless.

Believing that the people of this country have a say in their own destiny was nieve and foolish of me, and if you still believe that, in the face of everything we have seen, then you are just as nieve and foolish as I was. Or maybe you don't care, because you are getting your own way. On this. For now. The time will come when you too will expressely declare your instruction to your representitives.

Only to find, as we have, that they have no intention of representing you at all.

I think you need to educate your self on the role of an MP.

 

[Simster]

No, I thought Parliamentary democracy, where parliamentarians attended parliament to fulfil their promises to represent the views of the people, was what we had.

I was wrong.

A ruling class masquerading as a Parliamentary democracy is what we have, and that is pointless.

Believing that the people of this country have a say in their own destiny was nieve and foolish of me, and if you still believe that, in the face of everything we have seen, then you are just as nieve and foolish as I was. Or maybe you don't care, because you are getting your own way. On this. For now. The time will come when you too will expressely declare your instruction to your representitives.

Only to find, as we have, that they have no intention of representing you at all.

This is what irritates me about your childish tantrem of a viewpoint. I'm not getting my way at all, we are going to leave. I genuinely believe that, I want it to happen for the sake of democracy, but not at all costs and it should be allowed to take as long as it takes in order to do it properly.

The issue here is that the government have been taken over by an undemocratic, extremist cult. They have expelled people in their own party for daring to disagree with their methods, they have tried to have parliament shut down to evade scrutiny (it only failed because a whistle-blower published the date of prorogation), and they have lied about what the definition of Brexit actually is.

Whatever happens, we need to leave and I think we will, but it absolutely must respect the GFA or we risk going back to civil war in Ireland. It must also respect the livelihoods of people who have spent 40-50 building up an international supply chain.

 

[ManOfSussex]

There was an article doing the rounds, a couple of weeks ago, directly linking Liverpool being massively Remain because of the city's boycott of The Sun.

I remembering reading that a couple of years ago about The Sun's Brexit stance and Liverpool voting remain.

 

[Seaber]

Jo Johnson GONE.

It’s been an honour to represent Orpington for 9 years & to serve as a minister under three PMs. In recent weeks I’ve been torn between family loyalty and the national interest - it’s an unresolvable tension & time for others to take on my roles as MP & Minister. #overandout

From his Twitter

 

[Igzilla]

We have a representative democracy.

You won't please all the people all the time, but this is how it works. We elect MPs to represent us. based on a mix of their stated ideology, party loyalties, local interests and personal views. They make a judgement on each decision on a case by case basis. If a majority of constituents are unhappy with the judgements they take on how to balance those factors, then they are voted out.

What would you have in it's place? Because I'm not sure what options there are that work better?

It seems that there are a lot of people that have never really thought much about what democracy actually is and how it works.
'Democracy' is complex and difficult to implement. It has many different forms, which have taken centuries to evolve, and none are anywhere near perfect.

Democracy isn't, and can't be, defined on the basis of ONE non-binding referendum. I mean you'd need to be really dim to think that, right?

A lot of people don't seem to understand how our parliamentary democracy works and what being an MP actually means. I've posted this before, but it's worth posting again as it (very succinctly) encapsulates it. The words of Winston Churchill himself. Presumably all these people banging on about "traitorous MP's" etc must believe then that Churchill is a traitor too?

 

[Icy Gull]

As a life long Tory and remainer I accept that leave means leave but feck me Boris Johnson is just a lying conniving barsteward who needs to be brought down.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Did the extras ever get announced?

what were they?

Something on workers rights, environmental safeguards, a commitment to staying in the Customs Union until that is decided by a General Election, vote in Parliament about a 2nd referendum, and a sop to the DUP about NI alignment with the rest of the UK.

 

[pasty]

Jo Johnson GONE.

Ooo, that's gotta hurt. Your own brother

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49594793

 

[dingodan]

We have a representative democracy.

You won't please all the people all the time, but this is how it works. We elect MPs to represent us. based on a mix of their stated ideology, party loyalties, local interests and personal views. They make a judgement on each decision on a case by case basis. If a majority of constituents are unhappy with the judgements they take on how to balance those factors, then they are voted out.

What would you have in it's place? Because I'm not sure what options there are that work better?

It seems that there are a lot of people that have never really thought much about what democracy actually is and how it works.
'Democracy' is complex and difficult to implement. It has many different forms, which have taken centuries to evolve, and none are anywhere near perfect.

Democracy isn't, and can't be, defined on the basis of ONE non-binding referendum. I mean you'd need to be really dim to think that, right?

You make a promise, people decide if they want that, then if they do they vote for you. That's how it is supposed to work.

& If you ask people expressly to give you an instruction, you obey that instruction. Anything else under those circumstances is an affront to democracy.

 

[Simster]

It wouldn't have been a problem if we'd gone for a soft Brexit, which was the only realistic option, but I don't recall a big deal being made of how we couldn't have a hard Brexit. Surely Ireland and Northern Ireland knew about it?

Therein lies the mess we are in. Surely nobody voting leave genuinely thought politicians would have put peace at risk.

It turns out the ERG, Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummins really don't give a fck about peace in Northern Ireland, which is indisputably an absolutely shameful dereliction of duty.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Jo Johnson, brother of UK PM, quits as Tory MP and minister saying he is "torn between family and national interest"

 

[Igzilla]

You make a promise, people decide if they want that, then if they do they vote for you. That's how it is supposed to work.

& If you ask people expressly to give you an instruction, you obey that instruction. Anything else under those circumstances is an affront to democracy.

That's not what Churchill thought.

 

[Triggaaar]

Oddschecker is letting me down a little at the moment.

What do you wise folk think is the most likely outcome (whether we'll leave with a soft or hard brexit, or remain)?