Thunder Bolt
Silly old bat
Gordon Brown was an elected MP. Dominic Cummings is in charge, not Boris Johnson.
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[Politics] Brexit
- Thread starter KingstonSeagull
- Start date
Gordon Brown was an elected MP. Dominic Cummings is in charge, not Boris Johnson.
melias shoes
Well-known member
- Oct 14, 2010
- 4,830
If you say so.
cheshunt seagull
Well-known member
- Jul 5, 2003
- 2,594
My post was a response to this quote from you ' Ask people if they would prefer a deal, but want brexit to happen with or without a deal and you will find the numbers to be considerably larger than the third of people who want no-deal.' So you state clearly that there is more than one form that Brexit can take and a simple yes/no referendum result cannot tell us which of these people would choose. It seems that you, would prefer to decide this on their behalf. I am not sure how that equates with democracy and is the reason that the assertion that 'no-deal' is the will of the people doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.
Sorry mate but I can't follow what you are saying. You have quoted a small part of a small part of my post. This is what I said:
"Now, if anyone still believes a word that Boris is saying, still trusts the tories to make us better off, in sunny uplands, and thinks that (even if they voted remain) any sort of Brexit is right, proper and honourable, they need to have a good word with themselves."
Let me explain. After making up his mind to support Brexit (the 'two letters' episode) having had no history of being anti EU, we now have Boris prepared to gamble hard Brexit if the EU won't give him what he wants, and that despite his not yet having said what he actually wants. My comments were therefore about Boris and his management of Brexit. My point is that the man has nothing in common with Farrage or Redwood, no history of kinship, yet is now apparently leading us to a no deal Brexit, simply because this appears to be the best way of ensuring the tories win the next GE. For me that is 'wow - really?
'. Can you imagine Corbyn going all Ulster Unionist in order to curry votes in Ulster, or backing grammar schools to curry votes in places like Faversham (which still has the eleven plus)? People would laugh at him (even more than they do now). So Boris thinks wandering into Brexit, and indeed hard Brexit, with no plan, is a price worth paying to keep the tories in power? As many have said, people really do get the governments they deserve.
My comments, I reitarate are about Boris and where he's taking us. My views about Brexit are expressed elsewhere and have nothing to do with what you appear to think I meant with my Boris comments.
Look, I always regarded Brexit as a red herring, the desire of madmen, kept alive as an issue by mischievous media intrigued by the weirdness of the likes of John Redwood, and the vulgar chutzpah of Farrage, a one issue nitwit. Brexit was never a serious goal of any serious politician. Unfortunately Brown patronised middle England and angered people with his attitude to people like the women he was caught referring to as racist. Brown was a hopeless leader, and after his gaffe he made things worse by apologising and having the cameras there. [As an aside, had it Been Boris he'd never have made the comment, and if we pretend he had, he'd just laugh it offwith a winsome lie and a smirk. People love that, and hate Brown's unctiousness].
I am not quite sure how leaving the EU became such as exciting prospect for swing voters, to be honest. Did they really believe that Turkey and Iran were about to join the EU? Did they believe Farrage when he said 70 million Turks would soon be flooding our lands? I thought people were a bit brigher than that. Apparently not.
I don't really understand therefore how the leap in the dark appealed to people so much. It isn't as if we have French and Germans goose-stepping up and down Western Road, forcing us to eat snails and saurkraut. I don't read the Sun or Mail, or watch telly programmes fronted by Jim Davidson, so I don't really know what it is that gammon have been gorging on. But I did say on here before the referendum that 'leave' would win. I could sense the excitement. It reminded me of the episode of SouthPark when Obama was elected, and the town ran around shouting 'change', eventually trashing and burning the town in their excitement. A sort of mass hysteria, where every lie is believed if it fits the narrative - and indeed the moment.
No, I don't want Brexit. More than that I can't see how a good Brexit can be possible (Irish border, trade with the EU, travel, employment of key workers....). Ironically, the sneerer at can kickers, Boris, has decided to hoof the can so far down the road we will be picking up the pieces in a state of muddle and confusion for months (at least - years probably) after we leave (if we leave), and only to recaptiuate most of the arrangements we have now (I suspect) including all the outrages to freedom that all the PPF types and their manipulators continue to shriek about.
Anyway, time I shoved a straight banana and a square apple up my arse while I still have the chance.
midnight_rendezvous
Well-known member
you do come out with some utter nonsense.
D
Deleted member 2719
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theonlymikey
New member
- Apr 21, 2016
- 789
theonlymikey
New member
- Apr 21, 2016
- 789
If you'd done some research, you'd know Corbyn held discussions with EU negotiator about a customs union. Positive noises were made. Yet people think Labour wanted to stop brexit. They do now that it's only no deal on the table. If an GE comes before Brexit labour will campaign for a referendum. this will not be straight up Leave v Remain . But will actually indicate what type of Brexit will be palatable to the electorate.
There are several referendum models to take into consideration more than two choices.
This isn't betrayal, it's common sense.
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theonlymikey
New member
- Apr 21, 2016
- 789
theonlymikey
New member
- Apr 21, 2016
- 789
When all common decency has died out, this will come true.
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No.... I still think you would be better to express yourself entirely in emoticons. That's more your style....
theonlymikey
New member
- Apr 21, 2016
- 789
Matt Hancock rows back from views on suspending parliament
Health secretary defends U-turn saying it doesn’t feel like parliament will be suspended
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rows-back-from-views-on-suspending-parliament
Sajid Javid is ‘very comfortable’ with suspending parliament despite comparing it to ‘trashing democracy’
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-boris-johnson-democracy-latest-a9086276.html
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Health secretary defends U-turn saying it doesn’t feel like parliament will be suspended
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rows-back-from-views-on-suspending-parliament
Sajid Javid is ‘very comfortable’ with suspending parliament despite comparing it to ‘trashing democracy’
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-boris-johnson-democracy-latest-a9086276.html
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D
Deleted member 22389
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That bloke doesn't give a four xxxx about Brexit, or the millions of old labour voters like myself, which his party screwed over.
All Corbyn wants is the keys to number 10, so he can enforce his awful brand of politics on us all.
We also wouldn't be in this postion today, if it wasn't for the decisions of Blair, Brown.
Murray 17
Well-known member
- Jul 6, 2003
- 2,163
The EU, by including the backstop, offered us a deal that even they would have known, could not be accepted. If they won't remove it, Parliament won't be presented with a deal that is acceptable. So in effect, whether we like it or not, a deal will not go through Parliament.
Murray 17
Well-known member
- Jul 6, 2003
- 2,163
For every pro-EU story, there is an anti- EU one.
My friend puts up ceilings for a living. He advertises for labourers periodically. He often gets Europeans applying. He says they work hard, and then after 3 months or so they leave to set up on their own. They then undercut him.
The reason they can do this is a lot of them live in shared houses, with lower overheads and no responsibilities. My friend has a mortgage, family and bills to pay.
Now I'm sure that the customers of this guy are pleased to save money, but I completely understand how my friend is anti-EU.
Murray 17
Well-known member
- Jul 6, 2003
- 2,163
If another referendum included more than 2 options, Remain would win, because the Leave vote would be split.
That really isn't true. In parliament there are lots of honourable people who sincerely believe that 'the will of the people' should prevail. Before the referendum there was also a category of voter who disliked the EU (I disliked aspects of the EU, especially the appointment and powers of the unelected element) who believed and trusted those promising sunny uplands - that disengagement from the EU would be simple and painless, we would all remain friends, nothing much would change but we would be better off and have full control over everything from our borders to the shape of our bananas.
The fact they didn't realise we had most of that already was a mere detail, and was easily lost in any conversation (which was fevered at the time, with noises off, of fake news).
But, thick? Well, somewhat naive, and perhaps a fair bit delf-deluded. Optimism can be a powerful thing, and helps us live longer when we have a terminal illness (this is a fact) so we have to accept the downside of optimism sometimes - it can lead to wishful thinking.
That said, it was the identity of the pro-Brexit that put me on my guard. Personally I find it baffling that anyone could trust the likes of Farrage, Gove, the owner of Weatherspoons, Mogg, and last minute Boris (the liar) who were promising the earth, in preference to the worthy dullards saying 'we can estimate that some bad things will happen, but few good, so what's the point?'.....I could only go with the former rabble after an unexpected rush of blood to the head. It really would have been a 'yes, I am going to buy a lottery ticket because if I win I will be rich' moment. But....with the king of gammon, frog faced Farrage, leading the chorus, there is no way I could engage with Leave. Seriously - WTAF?
But, OK, yes, I agree that those who could only see bad things about the EU, and perhaps even believed some of the absurd things claimed, like Turkey about to join the EU, and Iran soon (I still have the leaflets), and how great everything will be with rosy cheeked English people picking the fruit in Kent instead of those dirty Romanians (etc etc); yes, thick as mince. Self deluded, believeing whatever bollocks resonated with their wormy fears and prejudices. But I'd say that is only 20% of leavers. Most are sincere. Like people who believe in god. Not thick, but.....naive?
Pretty much spot on, and factor in those genuine people who believed that we would be leaving with the best/easiest/etc. deal, and it really makes a mockery (as if further mockery was needed) of the whole thing.
Sadly, too many seem more than willing to cut off their (and our) noses, to spite their faces, rather than accept that it really isn't going to be a 'good thing', after all.
melias shoes
Well-known member
- Oct 14, 2010
- 4,830
Which is what they want. Win at all costs. If this was cricket they'd be the ones with the sandpaper.
JC Footy Genius
Bringer of TRUTH
- Jun 9, 2015
- 10,568
Stop the coup? ....... Coup noun. 1A sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.
‘Words have consequences.’ Unless, it seems, you’re a hardcore Remainer.
“The word Reichstag is now trending on Twitter,” noted the Observer’s Toby Helm.
John Crace of the Guardian – fresh from a rather strained comparison between Nigel Farage and either Stalin or Hitler – retweeted a passage from The Handmaid’s Tale referring to the establishment of a theocratic dictatorship by a terrorist group via the suspension of the United States Constitution.
Paul Mason told a crowd of Remain protesters in Westminster that “if Boris Johnson seizes power from Parliament, I promise you we will never have another free election in this country”, and got them to swear a bizarre oath that “at 12 o’clock on Saturday, we are coming for you, Boris Johnson”.
The Independent declared the announcement of a Queen’s Speech prorogation a ‘coup’.
Kate Osamor – the charming Labour MP who infamously told a Times reporter “I should have come down here with a bat and smashed your face in” – compared the Queen doing her perfectly proper constitutional duty by not meddling in politics to the last King of Greece’s active political involvement in sparking a military coup in his country.
At a ‘#stopthecoup’ rally yesterday evening, Owen Jones, himself a recent victim of political violence, summoned up the imagery of the spilt ‘blood of our ancestors’ and branded the Prime Minister a ‘tinpot would-be dictator’. He tweeted that the issue was now a ‘war’ which ‘we are going to fight with everything we’ve got’ (though his speech and ensuing column go on to urge ‘peaceful civil disobedience’).
The Best For Britain campaign even suggested that the monarch ought to remember the fate of Charles I.
Elsewhere in hardcore Remain circles, you could find every OTT analogy you might imagine. This was a mash-up of Peterloo and Kim Jong Un. It was Hitler’s Enabling Act revived. It was fascism, communism, and any other available totalitarianism, both historical and fictional.
As I’ve written in the past, I don’t mind a vivid analogy or an emotive turn of phrase. I may even have been guilty of committing some myself on occasion. But haven’t we just spent years being told in ever more self-important tones that “words have consequences”, and therefore everybody must take great care in their speech?
I can recall plenty of times hearing that the language of betrayal used by angry Brexiteers towards politicians who break their promises is actively dangerous; that military analogies or terms of any sort are equivalent to threats of violence; and that for a newspaper to characterise rebellious Tory MPs as ‘mutineers’ constituted a direct incitement of threats towards them.
At times this crusade for more dull language has become even sillier. A year ago Owen Jones (the very same) protested that Chuka Umunna’s call for Jeremy Corbyn to ‘call off the dogs’ was part of ‘a dehumanising narrative used against…Labour members’. ‘Party members are not dogs,’ he noted, helpfully eliminating any lingering doubt.
They can’t really have it both ways. What would the reaction of the above people be to Nigel Farage whipping up a crowd to chant ‘we are coming for you’ about a named political opponent? Or if pro-Brexit pressure groups tweeted darkly about the execution of the Queen? Would they see it as harmless to be accused not of being merely wrong but of being would-be dictators, on the very cusp of irreversibly establishing tyranny?
Do they still believe that ‘words have consequences’, or is that only applied to words they disagree with?
https://www.conservativehome.com/th...nless-it-seems-youre-a-hardcore-remainer.html
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,016
because vocal Labour politicans are in that camp. presenting the current situation as no-deal only option reflects this. there is no reason to believe "a customs union" option would pass parliament either. Corbyn and Labour are playing a waiting game, not committing to anything but inaction, neither supporting WA brexit or another referendum without first a GE.
elsewhere the hard left are using this as an excuse to fire up the agitators. i hope people see through them, when they say this unjustified procedure is a "coup" and to take to the streets, they are calling for that very thing for their purposes. Mason's claim that Johnson seizes power from parliament ignores that the act of prorogation sets the future date for a new parliament.
will the left reach a consensus with the centre right for a determined course of action, either delay, revoke or accept a50, or will they continue to use it to incite disorder and further their political aims?
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