[Politics] Brexit

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Or, Parliament blocking the carrying out of the instructions of the people is not democracy. Parliament are acting like tinpot dictators and Johnson is a freedom fighter defending the people from an out of control establishment hell bent on ignoring the answer to the question THEY asked, in a refurrendum THEY voted for, and going back on the promises THEY made in the last general election.

I'd agree with you were it not for the fact May's deal would have resulted in Brexit were it not for tories (Rees Mogg et al), those in favour of hard Brexit, blocking the deal. Yes I know other types also voted the bill down, but if Rees Mogg et al had voted for the bill it would have passed. So Boris' solution, to threaten hard Brexit if the EU don't give us a deal, is the result of people in his party not allowing a deal beacuse they want hard Brexit. And Boris still hasn't explained to us or the EU what deal he wants. And despite this, he and Rees Mogg are blaming the EU for not negociating a new deal.

Now, if anyone still believes a word that Boris is saying, still trusts the tories to make us better off, in sunny uplands, and thinks that (even if they voted remain) any sort of Brexit is right, proper and honourable, they need to have a good word with themselves.

I say that as a '7/10' lukewarm remainer, now absolutely and utterly in favour of remaining.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

All leavers are racist, thick and ignorant.

That really isn't true. In parliament there are lots of honourable people who sincerely believe that 'the will of the people' should prevail. Before the referendum there was also a category of voter who disliked the EU (I disliked aspects of the EU, especially the appointment and powers of the unelected element) who believed and trusted those promising sunny uplands - that disengagement from the EU would be simple and painless, we would all remain friends, nothing much would change but we would be better off and have full control over everything from our borders to the shape of our bananas.

The fact they didn't realise we had most of that already was a mere detail, and was easily lost in any conversation (which was fevered at the time, with noises off, of fake news).

But, thick? Well, somewhat naive, and perhaps a fair bit delf-deluded. Optimism can be a powerful thing, and helps us live longer when we have a terminal illness (this is a fact) so we have to accept the downside of optimism sometimes - it can lead to wishful thinking.

That said, it was the identity of the pro-Brexit that put me on my guard. Personally I find it baffling that anyone could trust the likes of Farrage, Gove, the owner of Weatherspoons, Mogg, and last minute Boris (the liar) who were promising the earth, in preference to the worthy dullards saying 'we can estimate that some bad things will happen, but few good, so what's the point?'.....I could only go with the former rabble after an unexpected rush of blood to the head. It really would have been a 'yes, I am going to buy a lottery ticket because if I win I will be rich' moment. But....with the king of gammon, frog faced Farrage, leading the chorus, there is no way I could engage with Leave. Seriously - WTAF?

But, OK, yes, I agree that those who could only see bad things about the EU, and perhaps even believed some of the absurd things claimed, like Turkey about to join the EU, and Iran soon (I still have the leaflets), and how great everything will be with rosy cheeked English people picking the fruit in Kent instead of those dirty Romanians (etc etc); yes, thick as mince. Self deluded, believeing whatever bollocks resonated with their wormy fears and prejudices. But I'd say that is only 20% of leavers. Most are sincere. Like people who believe in god. Not thick, but.....naive?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

All leavers are racist, thick and ignorant.

Many voted purely on wanting EU citizens to leave without knowing anything or wanting to know anything about what the EU actually does.
You can tell by the replies from all the leave thickos that they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
That's why we are in this farcical mess and the country is a laughing stock around the world.

Same old, same old. And of course you know every leaver personally to be able to make that tired sweeping statement. Maybe if you'd bothered to pay attention to all the posts in the thread you wouldn't have made yourself look like such an ignorant tosspot.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I'd agree with you were it not for the fact May's deal would have resulted in Brexit were it not for tories (Rees Mogg et al), those in favour of hard Brexit, blocking the deal. Yes I know other types also voted the bill down, but if Rees Mogg et al had voted for the bill it would have passed. So Boris' solution, to threaten hard Brexit if the EU don't give us a deal, is the result of people in his party not allowing a deal beacuse they want hard Brexit. And Boris still hasn't explained to us or the EU what deal he wants. And despite this, he and Rees Mogg are blaming the EU for not negociating a new deal.

Now, if anyone still believes a word that Boris is saying, still trusts the tories to make us better off, in sunny uplands, and thinks that (even if they voted remain) any sort of Brexit is right, proper and honourable, they need to have a good word with themselves.

I say that as a '7/10' lukewarm remainer, now absolutely and utterly in favour of remaining.

The real problem is that TM's 'good deal' (or a slight variation on it) was the only 'good deal' we were ever going to get, given the Ireland/NI border and the need for the EU to protect their single market. Now it's come to the crunch and nobody (Johnson, Gove etc, [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION], [MENTION=33253]JC Footy Genius[/MENTION] etc) can even give an outline of what this fantasy 'good deal' consists of.

The simple fact is the very idea that there was a 'good deal' has now been shown to be another leave campaign lie, that has taken in a lot of people.

The options are exactly the same as they were the week after the referendum

I really can't see anything beyond the three options

1/ Soft Brexit with No borders and regulatory alignment

2/ No agreement and WTO

3/ Withdraw article 50

Shirley, any negotiation now will only be minor fine-tuning on one of the above

Of course, we can keep extending membership, but it will still have to come back to one of the above

Anyway, just got a stream for United and then it's the BIG MATCH

 

[Bodian]

Or, Parliament blocking the carrying out of the instructions of the people is not democracy. Parliament are acting like tinpot dictators and Johnson is a freedom fighter defending the people from an out of control establishment hell bent on ignoring the answer to the question THEY asked, in a refurrendum THEY voted for, and going back on the promises THEY made in the last general election.

But that's not right is it. Parliament has not ignored the referendum result, or gone back on promises (not all of them anyway). What Parliament can't decide upon is the deal on which we leave. If May had negotiated a softer-Brexit deal without her red-lines, then we would have left by now as it would have garnered broad support from remain and leave MPs alike - and they would have 'carried out the instructions of the people' as you put it.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

All leavers are racist, thick and ignorant.

Many voted purely on wanting EU citizens to leave without knowing anything or wanting to know anything about what the EU actually does.
You can tell by the replies from all the leave thickos that they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
That's why we are in this farcical mess and the country is a laughing stock around the world.

I dont want EU citizens to leave. What I do want is some control on who we let in thou, there is nothing wrong with that.

What I don't like is how the media, posts on twitter and other platforms have basically scared EU citizens in to thinking they will be sent home. There is no need for any of it. Nobody is going to be sent home.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I dont want EU citizens to leave. What I do want is some control on who we let in thou, there is nothing wrong with that.

What I don't like is how the media, posts on twitter and other platforms have basically scared EU citizens in to thinking they will be sent home. There is no need for any of it. Nobody is going to be sent home.

 

[dingodan]

But that's not right is it. Parliament has not ignored the referendum result, or gone back on promises (not all of them anyway). What Parliament can't decide upon is the deal on which we leave. If May had negotiated a softer-Brexit deal without her red-lines, then we would have left by now as it would have garnered broad support from remain and leave MPs alike - and they would have 'carried out the instructions of the people' as you put it.

Yeah but they couldn't and can't agree on a deal.

& by saying no way to no deal, and no way to any deal...they are saying no brexit.

You can't respect the result of the referendum and remain in the EU. No deal has so far been parliament's choice. They chose not to accept any deal. They chose a no deal brexit.

 

[dingodan]

Now, if anyone still believes a word that Boris is saying, still trusts the tories to make us better off, in sunny uplands, and thinks that (even if they voted remain) any sort of Brexit is right, proper and honourable, they need to have a good word with themselves.

I say that as a '7/10' lukewarm remainer, now absolutely and utterly in favour of remaining.

Any sort of deal, or no deal, is brexit.

A deal which you think is acceptable or remain, is no brexit if a deal can't be agreed upon. That's what is not right, proper or honourable.

 

[dingodan]

Great idea, let's ask the people what they want. What form of consultation do you favour? Referendum, citizen's assemblies?

We asked people what they wanted. They wanted Brexit.

The question wasn't qualified with any caveats. Neither was the answer.

 

[Grombleton]

[tweet]1167729471195164672[/tweet]

 

[danish seagull]

All leavers are racist, thick and ignorant.

Many voted purely on wanting EU citizens to leave without knowing anything or wanting to know anything about what the EU actually does.
You can tell by the replies from all the leave thickos that they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
That's why we are in this farcical mess and the country is a laughing stock around the world.

It's people making bell end statements like yours that contribute to the problem.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Any sort of deal, or no deal, is brexit.

A deal which you think is acceptable or remain, is no brexit if a deal can't be agreed upon. That's what is not right, proper or honourable.

How can a deal which I think is acceptable become no Brexit if a deal can't be agreed upon?

I don't agree any deal is acceptable, but the decision is out of my hands, so how can my view lead to No Brexit?

And even if it is possible to untangle your incoherent 'sentences' how can any of this be, or not be, right and proper?

 

[dingodan]

How can a deal which I think is acceptable become no Brexit if a deal can't be agreed upon?

I don't agree any deal is acceptable, but the decision is out of my hands, so how can my view lead to No Brexit?

And even if it is possible to untangle your incoherent 'sentences' how can any of this be, or not be, right and proper?

"If anyone thinks that...any sort of Brexit is right, proper and honourable, they need to have a good word with themselves."

So there is a form of brexit which isn't? I assume you mean no-deal? & what to do in the face of that being the only option? I assume you would say no brexit?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

The really dishonest thing about all of this is that most of the people in parliament who are arguing against no-deal are against brexit period, and they are using the prospect of no-deal to pretend that they support brexit, just not this one. They will vote against all and any possible deal every time, and then argue that a no-deal brexit is something they cannot support. (but they do support honoring brexit, honest!)

 

[Bodian]

Yeah but they couldn't and can't agree on a deal.

& by saying no way to no deal, and no way to any deal...they are saying no brexit.

You can't respect the result of the referendum and remain in the EU. No deal has so far been parliament's choice. They chose not to accept any deal. They chose a no deal brexit.

They didn't approve the only deal that was put in front of them. They have not said 'no way to any deal' have they? They haven't been given another actual deal to vote on. You can't count the 'indicative votes' - because they were all pretty hypothetical anyway.

It's like saying 'agree to a 3-0 loss today', and you turn that down - so then you get told you have to have a 6-0 loss instead because you couldn't 'agree'. Whereas if you had been offered a 0-0 or even a 1-0 win you would have agreed to it. But you weren't offered it.

 

[Wardy's twin]

"If anyone thinks that...any sort of Brexit is right, proper and honourable, they need to have a good word with themselves."

So there is a form of brexit which isn't? I assume you mean no-deal? & what to do in the face of that being the only option? I assume you would say no brexit?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

The really dishonest thing about all of this is that most of the people in parliament who are arguing against no-deal are against brexit period, and they are using the prospect of no-deal to pretend that they support brexit, just not this one. They will vote against all and any possible deal every time, and then argue that a no-deal brexit is something they cannot support. (but they do support honoring brexit, honest!)

How can a deal which I think is acceptable become no Brexit if a deal can't be agreed upon?

I don't agree any deal is acceptable, but the decision is out of my hands, so how can my view lead to No Brexit?

And even if it is possible to untangle your incoherent 'sentences' how can any of this be, or not be, right and proper?

My reading of the comment If anyone thinks that...any sort of Brexit is right, proper and honourable, they need to have a good word with themselves' is that it is difficult to comprehend why anyone still wants BREXIT after the evidence of the the last 3 years which has proven all the lies from people like Davis & Boris about how easy it would be and how much better off we will be when we leave.

I still have had no one tell me 10 (or 5) ways as to why my life will be better when we leave. I can't see it just need some to point them out.

 

[dingodan]

They didn't approve the only deal that was put in front of them. They have not said 'no way to any deal' have they? They haven't been given another actual deal to vote on. You can't count the 'indicative votes' - because they were all pretty hypothetical anyway.

It's like saying 'agree to a 3-0 loss today', and you turn that down - so then you get told you have to have a 6-0 loss instead because you couldn't 'agree'. Whereas if you had been offered a 0-0 or even a 1-0 win you would have agreed to it. But you weren't offered it.

They don't want brexit and they believe that the best chance of stopping brexit is a no deal. That's why a lot of them won't support any deal which comes along. Maybe they will, as long as the numbers look like it will fail to pass anyway. As soon as there is a deal which looks like it might have the numbers, enough of them will find a reason to argue they can't support it.

This has gotten so messed up. People talk about a "cliff edge". Well a significant number of parliamentarians are effectively playing a game of chicken, let's get to the cliff edge because it's our greatet chance at turning around, we'll be able to stop brexit if we get to the cliff edge. Well they are playing with fire, we might just jump with no time to stop it from happening.

I don't mind no-deal personally, I don't believe the hype. But I'd prefer a deal. The people arguing against no-deal are giving the EU cause to think that if they just hold on until we reach the cliff edge, then they won't need to do a deal or face no deal. Remainers and the EU are all trusting that someone will save them if they let us get to the edge.

No-deal isn't a preferable option, but it's been made inevitable by the very people who claim to want it the least. Morons.

 

[pb21]

They didn't approve the only deal that was put in front of them. They have not said 'no way to any deal' have they? They haven't been given another actual deal to vote on. You can't count the 'indicative votes' - because they were all pretty hypothetical anyway.

It's like saying 'agree to a 3-0 loss today', and you turn that down - so then you get told you have to have a 6-0 loss instead because you couldn't 'agree'. Whereas if you had been offered a 0-0 or even a 1-0 win you would have agreed to it. But you weren't offered it.

Indeed parliament hasn't said this. Infact parliament have said the opposite as it voted to uphold the referendum, i.e. that it would accept a deal.

All parliament have said is that they don't accept the current deal.

Put an appropriate Brexit deal in front of Parliament and it will be voted through. Or, just close parliament and force through something undemocratically.

 

[dingodan]

My reading of the comment If anyone thinks that...any sort of Brexit is right, proper and honourable, they need to have a good word with themselves' is that it is difficult to comprehend why anyone still wants BREXIT after the evidence of the the last 3 years which has proven all the lies from people like Davis & Boris about how easy it would be and how much better off we will be when we leave.

I still have had no one tell me 10 (or 5) ways as to why my life will be better when we leave. I can't see it just need some to point them out.

It depends if you care about whether you are governed by the EU or by a UK government. EU law has supremecy while we are in the EU. There are other consequences of that to do with trade, finance, immigration etc, but for me the important matter of principle is who makes the law.

If you don't care about any of that, then no perhaps it won't effect you.

If you were one half of Trump's America you probably wouldn't feel particularly effected by his presidency. If you were the other half then the oppression and tyranny would probably be crushing.

All depends on what you believe in.

 

[Wardy's twin]

It depends if you care about whether you are governed by the EU or by a UK government. EU law has supremecy while we are in the EU. There are other consequences of that to do with trade, finance, immigration etc, but for me the important matter of principle is who makes the law.

If you don't care about any of that, then no perhaps it won't effect you.

If you were one half of Trump's America you probably wouldn't feel particularly effected by his presidency. If you were the other half then the oppression and tyranny would be crushing.

All depends on what you believe in.

thanks for your response. what examples of EU law do you have that have been bad for the UK?

The other thing about our law is surely most of that is past by Parliament , the same institution (well probably 75% of MPs) which originally felt the EU was ok as they were remainers. It is also the same institution which is now be vilified as being undemocratic and is being ignored/overridden by Boris & crew. So how does the future pan out, should Parliament have any role in the future if it can't be trusted not to work in the best interests of the population?

The vote opened a can of worms and unfortunately all that has happened in the last 3 years is we keep moving to a larger can of worms. Some people are & will profit from this situation but I don't see that as the 17.4 million who voted to leave just a small select group.