[Politics] Brexit

[Juan Albion]

This Brexit debate reminds me so much of the argument in the US over guns. Everyone really knows it's a bad thing but people keep banging on about their rights. "Leave means leave" = "don't mess with our 2nd amendment rights". There may or may not be good arguments for both issues but outsiders think they are silly and need something more than stupid catchphrases to convince them otherwise.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Not just now, I'm in a restaurant. And calm down

Don't you think it's rather sad to be posting on NSC while out to dinner ?

 

[GrizzlingGammon]

Ah, so 2 JCLs who want to start the thread from scratch. I can only assume the finger you use to run under the words as you read then is too sore to read all the posts.

Noone has suggested starting the thread again.

Just trying to get you to summarise the benefits of Brexit. You can write phonetically if that helps.

 

[Is it PotG?]

Don't you think it's rather sad to be posting on NSC while out to dinner ?

It's OK, they have WiFi

 

[dingodan]

Just quoting this response of yours to theonlymikey, as you say you didn't recall it, it was a few hours ago. I feel you were a bit disrespectful, and claimed he used analogy as he had no intelligent arguments, and there you are using analogies of playing chess with pigeons, as a reason to avoid giving an intelligent argument in favour of Brexit.

Apples and pears in my mind, but Ok. If you are sincerely offended, then I apologise. I am not perfect. I apologise to Mike too.

I'm sorry Mike.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Noone has suggested starting the thread again.

Just trying to get you to summarise the benefits of Brexit. You can write phonetically if that helps.

Yet you want everyone that's already posted what they perceive to be the benefits to re-post just for you .... and your little pal Lever ?

 

[dingodan]

There’s an organisation based in Brussels called the European Round Table of Industrialists (ERT). It’s a club – invitation only, not transparent, not democratic – just a private club. The only people who can become members of this club are the CEOs of the biggest European multinational corporations.

ERT members include the CEOs of Philips, Volvo, Shell, Fiat, Nestle, BP etc. Not US corporations – just those with their roots in Europe.

The ERT was instrumental in forming the single market in the first place. In 1985, Jacques Delors gave a speech to the European Parliament outlining the formation of a single market that mirrored a report by the CEO of Philips, Wisse Dekker – Europe 1990: An Agenda for Action. The aim of the ERT (and of the single market) is to promote growth and to orient the European economy towards exports, in order to obtain greater global market share for European corporations. From an ecological perspective, we should be doing the exact opposite of those things – stabilising the economy and gearing production towards local markets – nationally and in our communities.

ERT members are on very close terms with European Commissioners – they dine at each other’s homes, they meet regularly during work hours and they provide commissioners with places on the boards of their corporations (it’s called the ‘revolving door‘ between the state sector and the corporate sector).

Members of an activist group called the Corporate Europe Observatory managed to get into the offices of the ERT in Brussels, disguised as caterers. They were able to photocopy lots of documents, in which they found a lot of correspondence between Round Table members and commissioners about EU policy.

Many reports originating from the ERT end up as Commission policy almost word-for-word. For example, the ERT decided that we need to expand the motorway network in Europe, to facilitate growth and exports, and almost exactly the same map that they produced was used by the Commission and adopted by the European Parliament.

The European Commission is an appointed body not an elected one. EU policy officially originates from the European Commission, but unofficially and in reality, it originates with the ERT.

This isn’t controversial. You can search for it – It’s not a conspiracy theory. In fact you don’t have to search very far – Leon Brittan encouraged it publicly, and the attitude still prevails today – what’s good for the European Round Table of Industrialists is good for all of us.

If you believe that, then you’ve obviously strayed onto this website accidentally and this isn’t going to make much sense to you.

I think the appropriate response when confronted with a corporate puppet institution is to reject it. So that’s what I’ll be voting for in June, and of course I wouldn’t be writing this if I didn’t want to persuade you to do the same.

I think that probably most people in the sort-of greenie, sort-of left circles I move in are thinking of voting to stay in, for reasons related to European environmental and social directives. I’d argue that those directives don’t come close to making up for the increase in global corporate power, growth and exports that staying in will bring. And remember that polluting factories haven’t been eliminated, just exported.

However, I’ve also heard arguments supporting the EU because of vague notions of ‘unity’. I’m in favour of unity, just not unity through corporate institutions. We can build our own unity.

We’re not going to be able to reject our corporate-controlled national government quite yet, but we have an opportunity to reject this one.

https://www.lowimpact.org/ceos-europes-biggest-corporations-write-eu-policy/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Round_Table_of_Industrialists

 

[Baldseagull]

The mistake you make is that you are looking at it as a purely financial thing i.e. if we lose x amount in GDP etc where do we make it back.

He is saying that in response to the argument that "we send them vasts amount of money". If you want to have the other alleged benefits taken apart, you could try presenting them?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

What you mean is nobody has posted a benefit that YOU think is a benefit. There have been many many posts of what other people think are benefits.

No, I meant exactly what I posted. I have not seen one benefit posted.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Yet you want everyone that's already posted what they perceive to be the benefits to re-post just for you .... and your little pal Lever ?

Can you possibly try to post without being so condescending?

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Don't you think it's rather sad to be posting on NSC while out to dinner ?

He's probably got egg on his face
regards
DR

 

[Westdene Seagull]

No, I meant exactly what I posted. I have not seen one benefit posted.

In which case you've chosen to not read then or were blinkered when reading them. Just for you, as you're a reasonable poster, I'll give you one - leaving CAP.

 

[ManOfSussex]

2322 pages and you've been unable to read all the posts giving the benefits ? Yet there have been hundreds, no, thousands of posts giving the benefits. Are you a bit slow on the up take ?

What benefits?

The break up of The UK? The utter international embarrassment we've become leading to becoming an international pariah? Becoming Donald Trump and Steve Bannon's bitch? Losing Trident through the UK breaking up? Fighting the evil of The IRA for 100 years but giving them a united Ireland because we don't like the evil EU in Brussels more? Becoming poorer - socially, economically, influentially, politically, diplomatically? F***king over half the western world just to chase the distant pipe dream of empire? Ripping up an international peace treaty? 'Controlling' immigration but rolling over on future trade deals when we have no leverage so more people from developing countries come here rather than Johnny Foreigners from eastern Europe because they're from The EU and they're really, really bad? Blue passports? Taking back sovereignty but allowing an Old Etonian and his glove puppeteer Dominic Cummings (who make Rod Hull and Emu look like amateurs in comparison) to take over and ride roughshod over parliament? Deregulation and Singapore on Thames? Bring back the poor house and privatise The NHS ?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Can you possibly try to post without being so condescending?

I just get a tad bored of posters expecting answers to questions that have already been answered hundreds of times.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

What benefits?

The break up of The UK? The utter international embarrassment we've become leading to becoming an international pariah? Becoming Donald Trump and Steve Bannon's bitch? Losing Trident through the UK breaking up? Fighting the evil of The IRA for 100 years but giving them a united Ireland because we don't like the evil EU in Brussels more? Becoming poorer - socially, economically, influentially, politically, diplomatically? F***king over half the western world just to chase the distant pipe dream of empire? Ripping up an international peace treaty? 'Controlling' immigration but rolling over on future trade deals when we have no leverage so more people from developing countries come here rather than Johnny Foreigners from eastern Europe because they're from The EU and they're really, really bad? Blue passports? Taking back sovereignty but allowing an Old Etonian and his glove puppeteer Dominic Cummings (who make Rod Hull and Emu look like amateurs in comparison) to take over and ride roughshod over parliament? Deregulation and Singapore on Thames? Bring back the poor house and privatise The NHS ?

For whom the bell tolls
regards
DR

 

[Westdene Seagull]

He's probably got egg on his face
regards
DR

More like his wife doesn't like talking to him as he goes on and on and on about WTO trading rules !

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I just get a tad bored of posters expecting answers to questions that have already been answered hundreds of times.

Ignore them then. Being condescending doesn't help your case.

 

[GrizzlingGammon]

What benefits?

The break up of The UK? The utter international embarrassment we've become leading to becoming an international pariah? Becoming Donald Trump and Steve Bannon's bitch? Losing Trident through the UK breaking up? Fighting the evil of The IRA for 100 years but giving them a united Ireland because we don't like the evil EU in Brussels more? Becoming poorer - socially, economically, influentially, politically, diplomatically? F***king over half the western world just to chase the distant pipe dream of empire? Ripping up an international peace treaty? 'Controlling' immigration but rolling over on future trade deals when we have no leverage so more people from developing countries come here rather than Johnny Foreigners from eastern Europe because they're from The EU and they're really, really bad? Blue passports? Taking back sovereignty but allowing an Old Etonian and his glove puppeteer Dominic Cummings (who make Rod Hull and Emu look like amateurs in comparison) to take over and ride roughshod over parliament? Deregulation and Singapore on Thames? Bring back the poor house and privatise The NHS ?

For whom the bell tolls
regards
DR

Why do you hate the UK and the NHS?
This is the most unpatriotic thing ever said on this thread. And by a Brexiteer
It tolls ever louder for your benefits

 

[Thunder Bolt]

In which case you've chosen to not read then or were blinkered when reading them. Just for you, as you're a reasonable poster, I'll give you one - leaving CAP.

The CAP has been reformed several times whilst we've been in the EU, and we agreed to lower our rebates because we were doing so much better.
https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-library/Brexit-UK-agriculture-policy-CBP-8218.pdf


Here is what the NFU are saying about Brexit now.
https://www.nfuonline.com/news/latest-news/a-no-deal-brexit-must-be-avoided-at-all-costs-uk-farmi

Surely far better to stay in and still have a say in the reforms, than to shut ourselves off from everyone else, and be subjected to trade deals where the aces are in the oppositions hand.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

No, I meant exactly what I posted. I have not seen one benefit posted.

Right at the start of this thread someone I once enjoyed chatting with but now have on ignore (for being a prancing ninny) listed all the reasons to leave. They included some nutjobbery like Turkey soon joining the EU, plus other speculative sunny uplands bollocks (recreating the British Empire, New Zealand lamb, South African gammon, etc). And freedom. Let's not forget freedom. And keeping out all those muslim immigrants from Afghanistan.

I myself wrote (on this thread probably) that, 3 years ago, if I'd had a skinfull and felt a bit malcontented I sometimes had the urge to say 'sod the EU, let's raise the drawbridge'. But to paraphrase Winston Churchill, in the morning I was sober again.

The standard reply to 'you have no ****ing idea what will happen if we leave the EU' has been 'well you have no idea what will happen if we remain in the EU'. Brilliant reasoning. I have no idea what will happen if I don't lower my todger and testicles into a meat grinder, either, but that's no argument for my assuming a squatting position and releasing my undercarriage.

But anyway, leavers....as you were.