[Politics] Brexit

[Pretty pink fairy]

That is horrific but depressingly predictable.

I bet you will get those that will simply brush this off with a morally vacuous statement like - well we all knew we would take a short term hit for the longer term goal of taking back control.




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How do you know we wont ?
Regards
DR

 

[The Upper Library]

How do you know we wont ?
Regards
DR

Because the desire to leave the EU totally over rides anything else in the minds of some.

How does that little saying go again?.............Leave means leave.

I have worked in the NHS for the last 24 years and the only outcomes I see from Brexit is even more burdens being placed upon it followed by accelerated privatisation by our special friends from the good old USA.
Still at least we are taking back control..........


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[Gwylan]

I think it is. You know perfectly well that people interchange Ulster and Northern Ireland incorrectly, much as they do with Holland and The Netherlands. In both cases, you know what they mean!

I completely disagree on this. When it comes to talking about countries and borders it matters absolutely that the wording is right. Yes, people interchange Ulster/Northern Ireland, Holland/Netherlands or Great Britain/UK but they mean different things.

The original WA was proposing that Great Britain would be outside the customs union, while Northern Ireland would be outside it. Only after DUP protests did it change to UK instead of Great Britain.

Or take tonight, Bloomberg (the news service) has come under a lot of flak for tweeting "Northern Ireland would vote “overwhelmingly” to remain in Britain in a referendum on a united Ireland, says DUP leader Arlene Foster" Cue Irish queuing up to point that Northern Ireland isn't part of Britain.

The central theme of the debate about Brexit is Northern Ireland and where its border is. To be cavalier with words in this arena is missing the whole point. Irish politics is a complex beast and words really matter, particularly when they're about nationality and national identity.

 

[Simster]

Not much to disagree with there [MENTION=25]Gwylan[/MENTION] (certainly not from me) in the context of international law.

Except that you were picking up on someone on NSC who inadvertently used Ulster instead of Northern Ireland, not someone detailing the finer points of a key internationally recognised document. What you haven't explained is why it was so important in that instance that Ulster shouldn't be used by a lay person on an internet message board when discussing the Irish land border.

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

Whatever happens there are some who will always blame the EU. It has gone beyond politics or reasonable debate - we are in blind faith territory akin with religious zealots.





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If we leave with no deal and the huge problems it will cause this country, they will blame everyone else except themselves, mostly Europe, nothing will be there fault.
Comparing leave voters to religious zealots is just about the most accurate comparison I have seen on this thread.
With Johnson looking most likely this has now gone way beyond stupid to extremely worrying.
This country has gone potty.

 

[Gwylan]

What you haven't explained is why it was so important in that instance that Ulster shouldn't be used by a lay person on an internet message board when discussing the Irish land border.

Because I wanted to pick an argument on NSC - isn't that the idea?

(I also have a mate who lives in Ulster, but not in Northern Ireland who gets upset when the two who are mixed up. I also had a girlfriend from Ulster, but not Northern Ireland, who got upset. These things do matter to people)

 

[portlock seagull]

If we leave with no deal and the huge problems it will cause this country, they will blame everyone else except themselves, mostly Europe, nothing will be there fault.
Comparing leave voters to religious zealots is just about the most accurate comparison I have seen on this thread.
With Johnson looking most likely this has now gone way beyond stupid to extremely worrying.
This country has gone potty.

The blame game is pointless although the EU isn’t totally innocent, anyone stating it’s entirely one sides’ fault or the others has got Brexit blindness

 

[The Upper Library]

The blame game is pointless although the EU isn’t totally innocent, anyone stating it’s entirely one sides’ fault or the others has got Brexit blindness

So the EU are partly to blame for causing David Cameron to call a poorly prepared referendum that attempted to quieten a section of eurosceptics within in his political party. And it is also the EU’s fault that having won the referendum those wanting to leave the EU couldn’t decide how they were going to do that ?

Or are you suggesting that the EU are partly to blame for this current shambles because of their firm stance in the negotiations? If so doesn’t that really reflect how poorly thought out this whole plan has been?

What is the phrase again .,,.,,,,, “ made the bed now lie in it .....”


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[Crispy Ambulance]

So the EU are partly to blame for causing David Cameron to call a poorly prepared referendum that attempted to quieten a section of eurosceptics within in his political party. And it is also the EU’s fault that having won the referendum those wanting to leave the EU couldn’t decide how they were going to do that ?

Or are you suggesting that the EU are partly to blame for this current shambles because of their firm stance in the negotiations? If so doesn’t that really reflect how poorly thought out this whole plan has been?

What is the phrase again .,,.,,,,, “ made the bed now lie in it .....”


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'you choose your leaders and place your trust, as their lies wash you down and their promises rust'

40 years ago and Weller had it spot on!

 

[Simster]

So the EU are partly to blame for causing David Cameron to call a poorly prepared referendum that attempted to quieten a section of eurosceptics within in his political party. And it is also the EU’s fault that having won the referendum those wanting to leave the EU couldn’t decide how they were going to do that ?

Or are you suggesting that the EU are partly to blame for this current shambles because of their firm stance in the negotiations? If so doesn’t that really reflect how poorly thought out this whole plan has been?

What is the phrase again .,,.,,,,, “ made the bed now lie in it .....”


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They are partly to blame for negotiating a deal so poor that the UK parliament has thrown it out 3 or 4 times, similar to the first world war reparations which led to Germany being on its knees and creating the environment for a blood thirsty tyrant to take control. But even that is debatable - they might have expected a better negotiating team than the incompetents we have in government.

Hardly any of the mess is their making really (unless you include the blatant corruption that has fostered an environment for the UK to vote leave I suppose).

 

[Westdene Seagull]

So the EU are partly to blame for causing David Cameron to call a poorly prepared referendum that attempted to quieten a section of eurosceptics within in his political party. And it is also the EU’s fault that having won the referendum those wanting to leave the EU couldn’t decide how they were going to do that ?

Or are you suggesting that the EU are partly to blame for this current shambles because of their firm stance in the negotiations? If so doesn’t that really reflect how poorly thought out this whole plan has been?

What is the phrase again .,,.,,,,, “ made the bed now lie in it .....”


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Maybe if the EU had agreed to proper changes with Cameron the referendum would have gone the other way.

 

[portlock seagull]

So the EU are partly to blame for causing David Cameron to call a poorly prepared referendum that attempted to quieten a section of eurosceptics within in his political party. And it is also the EU’s fault that having won the referendum those wanting to leave the EU couldn’t decide how they were going to do that ?

Or are you suggesting that the EU are partly to blame for this current shambles because of their firm stance in the negotiations? If so doesn’t that really reflect how poorly thought out this whole plan has been?

What is the phrase again .,,.,,,,, “ made the bed now lie in it .....”


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If you’re that blinkered or blind to the EUs failings and part in the entire sorry saga, then there’s little left to say. The vitriol in your words merely underlines the entrenched nature of both camps positions and the endless squabbling. It is indeed a depressing state of affairs, I think we can agree on that.

 

[The Upper Library]

Maybe if the EU had agreed to proper changes with Cameron the referendum would have gone the other way.

Really

So not the lies/misinformation spread by the leave campaign.

Not the decades of eurosceptic propaganda from a right wing UK press that fuelled this.

Not the fact that the whole premise of the referendum was nothing to do with our relationship with the EU but was solely to do with an internal squabble within the Tory party.








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[nicko31]

Maybe if the EU had agreed to proper changes with Cameron the referendum would have gone the other way.

We had the best deal of the 28 already no Schengen, No Euro, a large rebate and restrictions of EU Labour if we desired.

Little England alone with few friends coming soon if Johnson gets his way

 

[The Upper Library]

If you’re that blinkered or blind to the EUs failings and part in the entire sorry saga, then there’s little left to say. The vitriol in your words merely underlines the entrenched nature of both camps positions and the endless squabbling. It is indeed a depressing state of affairs, I think we can agree on that.

Believe me - I take no delight in calling out this shambles. Nor do I want to have an entrenched position.

But surely the total mess this whole process has become and it’s effects upon our political and social frameworks has been caused by the fact it was poorly thought out, and the premise for it was disingenuous.



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[nicko31]

Boris Johnson says chances of no-deal Brexit are 'a million to one'

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2...nces-no-deal-brexit-million-one/#.XRRdzuhKjIU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCKOI24k_UY

 

[portlock seagull]

Believe me - I take no delight in calling out this shambles. Nor do I want to have an entrenched position.

But surely the total mess this whole process has become and it’s effects upon our political and social frameworks has been caused by the fact it was poorly thought out, and the premise for it was disingenuous.



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I do, I’m as sick and tired of it as anyone, hoping for a 2nd public ref and a clear majority in favour of remain this time because we should never have been lied to that we can leave. We can’t, not without Hobsons choice

 

[nicko31]

Whatever happens there are some who will always blame the EU. It has gone beyond politics or reasonable debate - we are in blind faith territory akin with religious zealots.

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Are you suggesting Raab and co will blame the EU instead of those that said..

We can have our cake and eat it, they need us more than we need them, its will be the easiest deal in history, they'll be queueing up to do trade deals with us the day after Brexit, Sunny uplands, Brexit dividends etc etc

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Really

So not the lies/misinformation spread by the leave campaign.

Not the decades of eurosceptic propaganda from a right wing UK press that fuelled this.

Not the fact that the whole premise of the referendum was nothing to do with our relationship with the EU but was solely to do with an internal squabble within the Tory party.








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Your question was why are the EU partly to blame - it was that I was answering. Cameron went and tried to negociate changes prior to the referendum .... the EU effectively told him to eff off. IMO, if they had agreed to change the outdated CAP and fisheries policy then the referendum would have been in favour of remain. The EU generally doesn't like change - well change of already agreed policies anyway. I wonder how up for stopping the move between their two sites they would be and thus saving taxpayers millions ? Ah, of course not.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Your question was why are the EU partly to blame - it was that I was answering. Cameron went and tried to negociate changes prior to the referendum .... the EU effectively told him to eff off. IMO, if they had agreed to change the outdated CAP and fisheries policy then the referendum would have been in favour of remain. The EU generally doesn't like change - well change of already agreed policies anyway. I wonder how up for stopping the move between their two sites they would be and thus saving taxpayers millions ? Ah, of course not.

So: 27 other nations would have to change their agricultural policies because of a little local difficulties for the Tory party in the UK? (How would we - specifically Leavers - have felt if it were say Italy making such demands? Just wondered...…………..)