[Politics] Brexit

[Thunder Bolt]

I have no romantic affinity with the protestants of Ulster, but Ulster is de facto part of our country (our country, by the way, is The United Kingdom which, oddly, is comprised of four constituent countries; the notion of a country is a peculiar thing). Consequently we cannot have a hard border between one part of the country (Ulster) and the rest. We simply cannot. Devolution does not allow for it. Only full independence for Ulster allows it, and even then it becomes compulsory ONLY if there is no hard border between Ulster and Eire.

Our current hard border with EU nations, manifested at sea ports and airports, where passport control is implemented, is an artificial construct we have kept because we did not fancy a porous border such as between France and Germany/Belgium etc. This was a concession to the xenophobic Brits, tiresome but determined entirely by ourselves and tolerated by our weary neighbours.

So, we could, if we want, have an open border with France at the ferry ports and, at airports with Italy and Germany etc., now. Obviously that is anathema to Brexitters, which is why we don't.

Yet....there has been an open border between Eire and Ulster for many years, has there not? That means an open border between the EU and the country called the United Kingdom. So....and bear with me here (I am a remainer after all)....we have passport control with the EU right now, everywhere except between the Ulster and Eire border, and we haven't all died. So....why can't we carry on in the same way after we leave?

Surely if we can visualise how travel to France or Italy will be after we leave, importing via lorries and trains, with presumably not a great deal more border checking than we have now, why is there a need to change anything in terms of arrangements with Eire? Edit: having read up on this, we will have to up the ante when importing and (especuially exporting) ti the EU because we won't have a free trade deal an all exports to the EU will need to be validated (the contaminated prawn issue, see below). That is a separate issue.

Obviously if we find there is a flood of guns, drugs and Albanians across the Irish border after Brexit then we can deal with that then. But....there is an open border there now so why would there be a sudden massive increase in illegal activity? Is that 'project fear'?

Can someone explain to me, in a few sentences (ideally) what the problem is here?

Boris claims that a workaround can be found, which acknowledges that there is a real issue, but he hasn't said what it is. That sounds like the worst of all worlds. If my musings above are correct there is no real problem, so why doesn't he say so? If there is a real problem (that I don't understand) as appears to be the case, then what is his solution?

I decided to look up the Irish Border issue online (several sources) to find out what the problem actually is. Basically it seems that the plan is to leave the border as it is now, but not label this as a permanant solution. In order to allow the possibility of bringing in a hard border in Ireland (to protect the EU from the dangers of crap the UK imports, like antibiotic laden shrimps from the far east coming into the EU) then a hard border may be invoked - this is the 'backstop'.

Unfortunately parliament voted this down on a range of different grounds: the ERG weirdos say this means effectively Northern Ireland (and by definition the UK) will remain in the customs union all the while the order remains open and that is unacceptable. This means they want a hard border in Ireland since nothing else addresses their isues (except a hard border in the North Sea - the traitors!). Others argue that the backstop must be time limited so a proper solution can be introduced at a defined point. Others claim the backstop is illusory because a technological solution (favoured by the EU, involving some sort of as-yet-uninvented way of scanning and tagging imports and exprts using some sort of super fast and powerful MRI machine) is pie in the sky. So we will either be saddled with an open border forever (which the ERG will never accept) or we will have to go 'hard border' within a defined period, which the Ulstermen and, more importantly, the Eire folk (who have the power of veto) will never accept.

Ok....just as I though and have maintained repeatedly, Brexit cannot happen all the while there are elected MPs with a vote who object to one or other aspect of the only possible ways to get Brexit done. I can relax again, happy in the knowledge that Boris cannot get the deal done, and will be prevented for hard Brexitting by his own party if he foolishly tries to go that route.

People are talking about the Irish border, but this also applies to Gibraltar (who vote for MEPs along with the SouthWest) and the British territories in Cyprus.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

In the off chance this hasn't been posted yet:-

[tweet]1143622994910203909[/tweet]

The Gateshead bid was too expensive.

 

[Stat Brother]

The Gateshead bid was too expensive.

They should have written it on the side of a bus.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Ulster isn't part of our country ... some of it is.

There can't be a hard border between Ulster and Eire (sic) because part of Ulster is in the ROI

Pedant. You know I am referring to the bit that is part of the UK. What is it called then? I presume you'll tell me it is Northan Ireland? So be it, then. I presume that when Rev Ian Paisley used to bang on about 'Ulster' and 'Ulster unionism' he was being provocative by implying that parts of Ulster, currently owned by Eire, are actually stolen and he represents them? Bit of a side issue wrt what I was going on about, but this is NSC after all.....

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

If I understand the question correctly, you are asking if we (Britain) could keep the open border in NI, as current, after we leave the EU ? (Continuing to give the EU complete access to all British markets and Freedom of movement across that border)

A few issues that I can see.

Currently, there is no difference whether goods come though Dover or over the Irish border. If we have left the EU then the rules governing goods (Imports and Exports) would be significantly different and if they weren't applied on the Irish Border, everything would simply head to that border until the rules were aligned and border posts were built to apply those rules.

Even if we want to give the EU full access to British markets and people, the EU may not want to continue to give unfettered access to the EU in return, as that is the main benefit of being a member of the EU.The Brexiteers may well cry out that that's the EU's problem and it will be down to the EU to put customs posts in Ireland. However I'm not sure that giving the EU full access to British Markets and people while having no such reciprocal access is sustainable. (Import tariffs only going one way etc).

The most pressing issue I can see though is that we will be operating under the infamous WTO. Their Most Preferred Nations (MPN) rules say that if we grant unlimited access for the EU to British Markets and People, we must also grant it to the whole world.

Is that what you were looking for ?

Many thanks for that.

 

[Gwylan]

Pedant. You know I am referring to the bit that is part of the UK.

It's not pedantry, the border between Northern Ireland and the ROI is absolutely fundamental to the debate on Brexit - it's the biggest sticking point.

 

[Simster]

It's not pedantry, the border between Northern Ireland and the ROI is absolutely fundamental to the debate on Brexit - it's the biggest sticking point.

I think it is. You know perfectly well that people interchange Ulster and Northern Ireland incorrectly, much as they do with Holland and The Netherlands. In both cases, you know what they mean!

 

[A1X]

I think it is. You know perfectly well that people interchange Ulster and Northern Ireland incorrectly, much as they do with Holland and The Netherlands. In both cases, you know what they mean!

See also: Americans who call Britain "England"

 

[Simster]

[tweet]1143862327583883265[/tweet]

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Given that the hard Brexit beloved of the rabid self-interested forces in charge, is likely to be swiftly followed by the break up of the Union, I'm not convinced that your hypothesis or especially, your #hashtag, are particularly prescient.

So you don't believe in Britain ?
Regards
DR

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

So who is it you're backing, Johnson or Hunt ? or are you confused again ?

Maybe best if you limit yourself to the easily learned cliches (Less chance of confusing yourself)

If anyone's confused it's you I'm afraid, speculation after speculation, the sooner we leave the sooner you can stop speculating , just remember LEAVE MEANS LEAVE ,nothings changed
regards
DR

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I think it is. You know perfectly well that people interchange Ulster and Northern Ireland incorrectly, much as they do with Holland and The Netherlands. In both cases, you know what they mean!

Indeed. Given the volume of verbiage (or 'considered reflection') I have written on the topic, to nit pick over this, thereby implying (whether intentionally or not) that I have made a fundamental error on what the sticking point is all about, consequently (so it seems) invalidating all my points, is borderline Grant Shappsery. Top work, Max

Edit: I just looked up Ulster on Wiki and see the error of my ways (not relevant to my points, still). But this has made me think: I always assumed an Ulster Unionist was someone from Ulster who wants to stay in the Union (with the rest of the UK). Perhaps it means....someone who wants the reunification of Ulster? Shall I look it up or wait for a pissy lecture from [MENTION=25]Gwylan[/MENTION]? Max, I am a scientist not a bloody historian, but, anyway....

Edit again: as far as I can see the UUP and DUP are both in favour of union within the UK. Unless they want to annex the three counties that are part of Eire then they should not be calling themselves 'Ulster' anything, if [MENTION=25]Gwylan[/MENTION]'s pedantry has any substantive validity. Pah!

 

[clapham_gull]

See also: Americans who call Britain "England"

Or people from Brighton who think Clapham Junction is in Clapham.

 

[nicko31]

[tweet]1143862327583883265[/tweet]

Raab today claiming if things end in no deal it will be the EU's choice not ours.

Hang on, I thought 17.4m people all voted for no deal?

 

[A1X]

[TWEET]1143895033738907649[/TWEET]

 

[The Upper Library]

Raab today claiming if things end in no deal it will be the EU's choice not ours.

Hang on, I thought 17.4m people all voted for no deal?

Whatever happens there are some who will always blame the EU. It has gone beyond politics or reasonable debate - we are in blind faith territory akin with religious zealots.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Ministers have been condemned after admitting that they have not carried out any assessment of the impact that a no-deal Brexit would have on the lives of people with disabilities.

The government was accused of having “ignored” people with a disability after admitting that “no formal assessment” had been conducted, despite fears over a possible lack of medical supplies and health workers if Britain leaves the EU without a deal.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...d-people-impact-government-plan-a8975511.html

 

[The Clamp]

[TWEET]1143895033738907649[/TWEET]

Semi sentient turnip. Brilliant. Lol.

He is how I see most leave backers. Clueless.

 

[The Upper Library]

Ministers have been condemned after admitting that they have not carried out any assessment of the impact that a no-deal Brexit would have on the lives of people with disabilities.

The government was accused of having “ignored” people with a disability after admitting that “no formal assessment” had been conducted, despite fears over a possible lack of medical supplies and health workers if Britain leaves the EU without a deal.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...d-people-impact-government-plan-a8975511.html

That is horrific but depressingly predictable.

I bet you will get those that will simply brush this off with a morally vacuous statement like - well we all knew we would take a short term hit for the longer term goal of taking back control.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Ministers have been condemned after admitting that they have not carried out any assessment of the impact that a no-deal Brexit would have on the lives of people with disabilities.

The government was accused of having “ignored” people with a disability after admitting that “no formal assessment” had been conducted, despite fears over a possible lack of medical supplies and health workers if Britain leaves the EU without a deal.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...d-people-impact-government-plan-a8975511.html

Could , might, if.....zzzzzzzzzzzz








regards
DR