[Politics] Brexit

[Two Professors]

Not worth it.

Just Juncker being a bit cack-handed with a ceremonial torch and almost burning the first lady in Rwanda.

Thank you.Saw it on tv with no sound,but doesn't appear to be covered here.Glad he didn't hurt her.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Brexit could easily have been delivered.

EFTA membership - meaning EEA membership. No Customs Union except for Northern Ireland, and a new customs boundary in the Irish Sea.

The best of all worlds - 17.4 million votes in 2016 obeyed, minimal hit on the economy and jobs, ability to do our own trade deals, no membership of CAP, outside EU court jurisdiction, no euro, no ever closer union, no EU army, no membership of the EU parliament.

Someone will no doubt now spout the 'rule takers' nonsense - an unholy joint hatchet job in a pincer movement from both the ERG and People's Vote Zealots.

https://twitter.com/AdrianYalland/status/1073867169723756544?s=19


Oh, and this is all still possible with May's Deal.

A hard border in the Irish sea would be an utter betrayal of Ulster Unionists (Bitish Citizens) and would never be supported by a single member of the Conservative and Unionist party. Apart from that, great plan.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

A hard border in the Irish sea would be an utter betrayal of Ulster Unionists (Bitish Citizens) and would never be supported by a single member of the Conservative and Unionist party. Apart from that, great plan.

That's part of the price and compromise of Brexit, though.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I see the sister of the Honrouble Member for the 18th century is standing as an MEP for Farage's Brexit Party.

Annunziata Rees-Mogg - that sounds like something you'd catch off uncooked poultry in southern Africa.

I'm sure I had a dose of that, once. Gives you torrential diarrhoea.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

That's part of the price and compromise of Brexit, though.

For some reason my 'laughed so hard I shat' emoji isn't working.

You are either a master of comedy, or deluded. Hats off to you, either way.

 

[ManOfSussex]

A hard border in the Irish sea would be an utter betrayal of Ulster Unionists (Bitish Citizens) and would never be supported by a single member of the Conservative and Unionist party. Apart from that, great plan.

Some of them would sell their Grandmother (or Nanny in the case of Rees-Mogg) for Brexit now though.

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Brexit is deliverable in two forms.

Staying in the Customs Union avoiding a hard border in NI. But according to a proportion of leavers (no one knows what proportion), this isn't Brexit.

Leave with 'No deal'. If we had begun preparing immediately after the referendum, by investing the 10s of billions required in putting customs posts on the NI border, building lorry parks at all ports, negotiation of our new schedules and quotas with the WTO, putting in the IT infrastructure, the design, building and testing of the new IT systems to run the new tariffs and rules and the recruitment and training of the new staff to run the new systems/rules etc, it may have been possible operationally by now, 3 years later. (Personally I doubt that 3 years is sufficient, but you could argue the case, if it wasn't now irrelevant). Then we would only have to worry about the economic impact of the new tariffs and procedures which I think would adversely effect us for many years to come.

So it is deliverable, but until 'the people' decide what they want, there is no way the government can deliver what 'the people' want

Absolutely correct. Of the two, a hard border between Ireland and Ulster is the only possibility that delivers a Brexit that people who want proper out will tolerate. I can just about see this as do-able. But when it was mooted a couple of years ago most of the Brexit fanatics on here poo poohed it on the grounds that it was irrelevant and unneccessary. I think that I also agree with you in that if we had spent all our time sorting out the Irish border then we could have been out by now (not what I wanted but I'm not going to spend a minute worrying about it).

The fact that none of this has happened is a testament to the collective madness that has gripped the nation, inside and outside of parliament. Or perhaps it is a reflection of the fact that nobody really wants to stare into the abyss (of 'not a real Brexit' versus 'hard Brexit and all the other stuff' you listed), let alone wonder how much it would hurt if one jumped.

Brexit isn't going to happen, is it.

 

[TSB]

Onto Brexit. Does anyone see this six month extension making a blind bit of difference? I don't, because it feels that nobody is incentivised to move on their positions. It seems to me that the obvious solution is for a soft Brexit because that is the only thing that can be agreed. A full-on no deal has no mandate whatsoever and repealing article 50 is undemocratic.

I wish our MPs would just get on with putting together the obvious fudge.

In what way is that 'undemocratic'?

We elect the people who make the decisions. They make a decision. That surely is the point of democracy.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I'd like to see a united Ireland.

Looks like Theresa May has had enough of the Irish border issue and is coming round to that idea as well now.

[tweet]1109046521369116672[/tweet]

https://twitter.com/Jim_Sheridan/status/1109046521369116672

 

[Simster]

In what way is that 'undemocratic'?

We elect the people who make the decisions. They make a decision. That surely is the point of democracy.

OK, it's arguable. The Tories promised a referendum to the electorate which they went ahead with but without putting any thought into how to implement a leave vote. I don't advocate referendums in a parliamentary democracy but having carried one out, you can't really say "sorry everyone, we can't do it". Not without a massive shift in public opinion anyway.

 

[Is it PotG?]

OK, it's arguable. The Tories promised a referendum to the electorate which they went ahead with but without putting any thought into how to implement a leave vote. I don't advocate referendums in a parliamentary democracy but having carried one out, you can't really say "sorry everyone, we can't do it". Not without a massive shift in public opinion anyway.

Wonder why the MPs voted 6/1 in favour of upholding the result.

 

[LadySeagull]

Brexit isn't going to happen, is it.

Oh yes it is. We'll see.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

A few of the former Leave campaigners have essentially said that the Brexiters got greedy, and I think it's hard to disagree with that. "Out, but only just out" is probably the best interpretation of the 2016 result you'll find, but some seemed determined to believe that 52% actually equalled 100%. To push for a really hard Brexit would have been akin to the Remain side winning 52-48 and deciding that was a mandate to join the Euro, Schengen etc. Leavers now claiming 52% means No Deal would have been the equivalent of Remainers saying 52% meant we should become a department of France.

It didn't matter whether it was one single vote or 5 million votes. It was a yes/no vote and only needed a simple majority. How do you decide what is an acceptable mandate? One million, five million, ten million? Cooper and Letwin got their emergency vote though the other night by one vote ( 313 - 312 ) That was enough.
Lots of results are close.....e.g....1960 USA Presidential Election.
Kennedy.......34,220,984 ( 49.72% )
Nixon............34,108,157 ( 49.55% )
Was that enough of a mandate for Kennedy?
If there is another referendum and Remain wins 50.5 to 49.5 is that enough of a margin to say that the British people are firmly behind staying in the EU? Or if Leave wins 53 to 47 is that enough to say that the people are even more strongly behind leaving ? Whatever happens, its never going to satisfy a lot of people.
Conclusion.....avoid bloody referendums.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

In what way is that 'undemocratic'?

We elect the people who make the decisions. They make a decision. That surely is the point of democracy.

yes that's right , the decision was to leave the EU which the establishment and the liberal elite are TRYING TO STOP
regards
DR

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Oh yes it is. We'll see.

we will indeed
regards
DR

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

She has only one plan to bring to parliament - the one she negociated with the EU. The fact parliament chucked it out is a product of the failure to set up a process from day one, a failure that was actually unavoidable for reasons I explained earlier today.

Her listening is irrelevant. You having legitimate reasons for disliking her are also irrelevant.

Alan Watkins described politicians as bookies or vicars. May, is a vicar. Most are bookies (they see the end game and what success looks like and make their plans based around that, but if what looks like success changes, the objective changes). May has a belief (that we must leave the EU) and nothing will shake that. And she is a convert - converts are the most zealous.

Actually I am tired of talking about this now. Brexit is like the King's New Clothes. I am surprised the nakedness hasn't been mentioned more widely. The right wing commentator that someone (I think it ws you) quoted the other day as admitting Brexit is impossible and therefore wrong is one of the few people who are not still counting the buttons on the Kings raiment.

Do I like Mrs May? No, not at all. For all the reasons you dislike her, and more. But that does not mean I blame her for the Brexit cluster****. I don't wish someone else were tory leader, Boris for example, someone who would have delivered Brexit by now. Why? Because they couldn't and cannot (and Boris and Davies know this - which is why they flounced). Them and others. And also because I don't want someone to appear at the eleventh hour and deliver Brexit. Why the actual **** would I want that? Things are bad enough for us already without actually leaving!

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awr...rty.org//RK=2/RS=ztS38aoR9OiJOAvqm6w4nRhLSlI-
regards
DR

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Oh yes it is. We'll see.

...." Oh no it isn't "
...." Oh yes it is "
...." Oh no it isn't..........

 

[vegster]

I see the sister of the Honrouble Member for the 18th century is standing as an MEP for Farage's Brexit Party.

Annunziata Rees-Mogg - that sounds like something you'd catch off uncooked poultry in southern Africa.

According to the BBC " she joined " the Conservative Party at the age of 5.... Must have filled in the application in crayon?

 

[Mo Gosfield]

OK, it's arguable. The Tories promised a referendum to the electorate which they went ahead with but without putting any thought into how to implement a leave vote. I don't advocate referendums in a parliamentary democracy but having carried one out, you can't really say "sorry everyone, we can't do it". Not without a massive shift in public opinion anyway.

It was the poorest preparation for a referendum possible. Arrogance and complacency kicked in. Cameron decide that this was going to be his legacy. He would quell the Eurosceptics in his own party for another x no. of years. Farage et al would be derailed and relegated to a minor irritant and he would get two terms as PM ( minimum ).
You are right. There was no planning for Leave. He was warned by senior advisors that it could be close but the consensus was that Remain would win. He chose to ignore the fact that his visits to Brussels had yielded diddly squat in new concessions and that some members of the public were all too aware of his failings. It wasn't good enough just to predict economic downturn if Leave won. The full impact of leaving was never spelt out. The complexity involved. Their campaign manager was complacent and was outthought and out manouvered by emotion and soundbite from the other side.
The die has been cast.