[Politics] Brexit

[Green Cross Code Man]

Yes, because they realised that people were voting against austerity and Tory policies rather than the EU. People have changed their minds especially where the car plants are closing.

Some of that is undoubtedly true but some of it patently isn't.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

In fairness, the DUP (understandably) always said their red lines were such that they want NI to be treated no differently from the rest of the UK. And this is the folly and irresponsibility of a UK government getting into bed with one side of the sectarian divide. It should never have been considered as a means of hanging onto power.

The fact is, we simply cannot just walk away without solving the Irish border issue. I'd be interested in what [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] and [MENTION=33253]JC Footy Genius[/MENTION] - both happy to get into petty squabbles over the meanings of other Irish referendums and their status - hold up as solutions to this problem. I think it is interesting that [MENTION=599]beorhthelm[/MENTION] - previously a leaver - changed his position, in part because he concluded that it simply can't be done.

I think you are mistaken I haven't squabbled over meanings of other Irish referendums and their status, have I? The Irish border issue has been weaponised to apply pressure during the negotiations in my view. The supposed only choices are customs union or hard border but both sides have said at one point or another that there will be no hard border under any circumstances. Has to be a customs union then? Mmmmmm ... After two years of posturing and dismissing UK suggestions about finding alternative solutions and with the threat of no deal looming, suddenly the EU and the Irish began to suggest they can perhaps find alternatives to setting up a hard border (see links). Just one reason why keeping no deal on the table was so important as it applies real pressure. It's also unreasonable to expect anyone to come up with definitive border solutions until we have established our new trading relationship with the EU. It was the EU that refused to discuss this until we left. If they think they can find alternative solutions to avoid a hard border that may not be perfect but deal with the worst case no deal scenario I think it likely solutions can be found after we agree a mutually beneficial trade deal.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47816500

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...id-hard-border-will-need-more-staff-1.3853732

 

[albion68]

I've just had a quick scan of the thread to see if anyone has put forward a new solution that hadn't been outlined before, as I know that the very idea that 'leave voters' would have to answer a binary question in order to decide which leave they want seems to render certain people completely speechless and unable to make a binary choice. (And if you can't see the irony in that ).

But unfortunately, unless I've missed it no-one has, so I'm afraid it's back to the same old binary one.

As you obviously think and want Brexit to happen, which did you want, the Customs Union one or the Hard Border one ?.

I have got one for you an Economist on TV the other day said a lot of EU countries are going in to recession soon ,was she telling the truth ,yes or no .

 

[WATFORD zero]

I think you are mistaken I haven't squabbled over meanings of other Irish referendums and their status, have I? The Irish border issue has been weaponised to apply pressure during the negotiations in my view. The supposed only choices are customs union or hard border but both sides have said at one point or another that there will be no hard border under any circumstances. Has to be a customs union then? Mmmmmm ... After two years of posturing and dismissing UK suggestions about finding alternative solutions and with the threat of no deal looming, suddenly the EU and the Irish began to suggest they can perhaps find alternatives to setting up a hard border (see links). Just one reason why keeping no deal on the table was so important as it applies real pressure. It's also unreasonable to expect anyone to come up with definitive border solutions until we have established our new trading relationship with the EU. It was the EU that refused to discuss this until we left. If they think they can find alternative solutions to avoid a hard border that may not be perfect but deal with the worst case no deal scenario I think it likely solutions can be found after we agree a mutually beneficial trade deal.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47816500

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...id-hard-border-will-need-more-staff-1.3853732

So do you want to give us just a brief outline of what this alternative is?

You've had 3 years, but I suspect it will be the normal deflection / whataboutism. It's simple, just outline this 'other option'?

 

[ManOfSussex]

I’ve always (well, when I’ve rarely thought about it) considered myself both British and English. Probably only patriotically English during a international football or rugby union match. I’d always considered the likes of Aneurin Bevan, Lloyd George, Mary Peters, George Best, Sean Connery, Ally McCoist, Gordon Brown, GB Olympic teams, etc, etc, .... as simply fellow Brits and countrymen.

The growing schism is a very recent thing, initially a result of the divisiveness of the likes of the SNP, it’s their raison d'etre. ‘Big brother’ next door, England, was for a while a rudderless nation without a clear identity, something Paxman identified in his 1998 text. St George’s Day barely noticed, unlike the other three.

The English are now far less embarrassed in being proud of our/their Englishness.

Unfortunately, right wing extremism, thuggery, racism, xenophobia has rode on the back of that. Just look at the amount of racism and Islamophobia from certain football fans in the last 7 days alone.

I can't argue with any of that.

As a Sussex lad (I'm in my 40's now) born in Hastings who ended up living in Africa, marrying an African national, fathering a son who was mixed raced and entitled to dual citizenship, living among people who used to respect this country and what it was about - I genuinely don't know who I am anymore. I'm damn sure I'm not English though. This mess is not the country I'm from.

 

[Weststander]

Some of that is undoubtedly true but some of it patently isn't.

This. The overwhelming reason given by Brexiteers was too much immigration (not my opinion and I voted remain).

That feeling had been brewing for many years in Wales, Northern England and the Midlands. Remember the old lady in Lancs clashing with PM Gordon Brown?

It had little to do with people being sad over the the later Coalition.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I have got one for you an Economist on TV the other day said a lot of EU countries are going in to recession soon ,was she telling the truth ,yes or no .

Well, seeing as I (and I suspect you) have no idea what or who you are talking about, I think I a considered answer may need a little more detail

And I'm sorry but given the opportunity to interact with yourself or a bit of chicken on a plate, I feel the latter may offer more of a challenge

 

[ManOfSussex]

I think you are mistaken I haven't squabbled over meanings of other Irish referendums and their status, have I? The Irish border issue has been weaponised to apply pressure during the negotiations in my view. The supposed only choices are customs union or hard border but both sides have said at one point or another that there will be no hard border under any circumstances. Has to be a customs union then? Mmmmmm ... After two years of posturing and dismissing UK suggestions about finding alternative solutions and with the threat of no deal looming, suddenly the EU and the Irish began to suggest they can perhaps find alternatives to setting up a hard border (see links). Just one reason why keeping no deal on the table was so important as it applies real pressure. It's also unreasonable to expect anyone to come up with definitive border solutions until we have established our new trading relationship with the EU. It was the EU that refused to discuss this until we left. If they think they can find alternative solutions to avoid a hard border that may not be perfect but deal with the worst case no deal scenario I think it likely solutions can be found after we agree a mutually beneficial trade deal.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47816500

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...id-hard-border-will-need-more-staff-1.3853732

Simple question I asked you a while back - Who is your MP?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

This. The overwhelming reason given by Brexiteers was too much immigration (not my opinion and I voted remain).

That feeling had been brewing for many years in Wales, Northern England and the Midlands. Remember the old lady in Lancs clashing with PM Gordon Brown?

It had little to do with people being sad over the the later Coalition.

Immigration was an issue that was used malevolently by some in the leave campaign. It was not the reason I voted against staying in the EU, but there again, my arguments against it were formed when I was in my late teen early 20's back in the late 80's when the world and the UK were very different places. I think the immigration issue is a real concern but disagree with the nasty, populist manner that it was used to manipulate people.

 

[Weststander]

I can't argue with any of that.

As a Sussex lad (I'm in my 40's now) born in Hastings who ended up living in Africa, marrying an African national, fathering a son who was mixed raced and entitled to dual citizenship, living among people who used to respect this country and what it was about - I genuinely don't know who I am anymore. I'm damn sure I'm not English though. This mess is not the country I'm from.

When on holiday in the UK or elsewhere as a kid or an adult, I never thought any differently of Scots, Ulster-men and the Welsh, from say Geordies, Cockneys, Scousers, Mancs, Carrot-Crunchers or Brummies. Just people from another part of OUR interesting country, each with a different accent.

The recent divide between the 4 nations is a shame. Respected ex Labour ministers such as Murphy and Darling often said that the SNP operate the politics of division and discord. It worked.

 

[ManOfSussex]

When on holiday in the UK or elsewhere as a kid or an adult, I never thought any differently of Scots, Ulster-men and the Welsh, from say Geordies, Cockneys, Scousers, Mancs, Carrot-Crunchers or Brummies. Just people from another part of OUR interesting country, each with a different accent.

The recent divide between the 4 nations is a shame. Respected ex Labour ministers such as Murphy and Darling often said that the SNP operate the politics of division and discord. It worked.

Freshwater East as a toddler for the royal wedding of '81 - I've got pictures to prove it of me.

I find the division of this union since an utter shame.

 

[Weststander]

Freshwater East as a toddler for the royal wedding of '81 - I've got pictures to prove it of me.

I find the division of this union since an utter shame.

Cornish holidays in the 70’s as a nipper, with Geordies, Scots and Scousers also staying at the farm .... I liked them all. Have travelled round England and Scotland a fair bit as an adult (longer stays than a rudimentary day trip to see the Albion), where I’ve met many friendly and interesting folk. Never any problems at all.

 

[albion68]

Well, seeing as I (and I suspect you) have no idea what or who you are talking about, I think I a considered answer may need a little more detail

And I'm sorry but given the opportunity to interact with yourself or a bit of chicken on a plate, I feel the latter may offer more of a challenge

It was a remark in a conversation with experts , on a political programme BBC i think ,made me wonder if this true or not ,basically Countries in the EU are not doing very well at the moment in fact its been said Germany is going in to recession or is this all rubbish ?

 

[Weststander]

It was a remark in a conversation with experts , on a political programme BBC i think ,made me wonder if this true or not ,basically Countries in the EU are not doing very well at the moment in fact its been said Germany is going in to recession or is this all rubbish ?

Newsnight with very recent pieces by Katya Adler and Damian Grammaticus, have frequently covered the fact that the Eurozone countries are going into recession. Another reason why they didn’t want Brexit disrupting their gathering economic woes.

 

[nicko31]

I've just had a quick scan of the thread to see if anyone has put forward a new solution that hadn't been outlined before, as I know that the very idea that 'leave voters' would have to answer a binary question in order to decide which leave they want seems to render certain people completely speechless and unable to make a binary choice. (And if you can't see the irony in that ).

But unfortunately, unless I've missed it no-one has, so I'm afraid it's back to the same old binary one.

As you obviously think and want Brexit to happen, which did you want, the Customs Union one or the Hard Border one ?.

They wamt neither, just a unicorn.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

They wamt neither, just a unicorn.

That joke just gets funnier and funnier the more one hears it.

 

[nicko31]

I see the sister of the Honrouble Member for the 18th century is standing as an MEP for Farage's Brexit Party.

Annunziata Rees-Mogg - that sounds like something you'd catch off uncooked poultry in southern Africa.

The Brexit elite just got a bit more elite

 

[clapham_gull]

Still telling fibs

Boris Johnson was wrong to claim there was polling evidence that a no-deal Brexit was the public's preferred option, the press regulator has ruled.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47913555

Rees Mogg has a history of leaving subsequently proven lies on his Twitter feed, so no surprise he hasn't removed this:

https://twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1114500236150550529

Bernard Jenkins was on television last night still spouting the same rubbish after Iain Duncan Smith did that interview in America.

 

[nicko31]

That joke just gets funnier and funnier the more one hears it.

I know we all need to just believe more.

Face it, Brexit is a project by the elites, for the elites. There's nothing in it for ordinary folk...

 

[Caveman]

Sorry new to this thread could someone summarise the last 8518 pages for me please?