[Politics] Brexit

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I am referring to quotes from people who have been summonsed to number 10, or been invited to talks elsewhere, Chequers, Brussels etc. Many of them have said, she's invited us, listened to us, but not changed one bit of her plan.
She's even tried to bring her plan into Parliament three times without changing it. She is as stubborn as a mule, and nothing will happen until she compromises.

She has only one plan to bring to parliament - the one she negociated with the EU. The fact parliament chucked it out is a product of the failure to set up a process from day one, a failure that was actually unavoidable for reasons I explained earlier today.

Her listening is irrelevant. You having legitimate reasons for disliking her are also irrelevant.

Alan Watkins described politicians as bookies or vicars. May, is a vicar. Most are bookies (they see the end game and what success looks like and make their plans based around that, but if what looks like success changes, the objective changes). May has a belief (that we must leave the EU) and nothing will shake that. And she is a convert - converts are the most zealous.

Actually I am tired of talking about this now. Brexit is like the King's New Clothes. I am surprised the nakedness hasn't been mentioned more widely. The right wing commentator that someone (I think it ws you) quoted the other day as admitting Brexit is impossible and therefore wrong is one of the few people who are not still counting the buttons on the Kings raiment.

Do I like Mrs May? No, not at all. For all the reasons you dislike her, and more. But that does not mean I blame her for the Brexit cluster****. I don't wish someone else were tory leader, Boris for example, someone who would have delivered Brexit by now. Why? Because they couldn't and cannot (and Boris and Davies know this - which is why they flounced). Them and others. And also because I don't want someone to appear at the eleventh hour and deliver Brexit. Why the actual **** would I want that? Things are bad enough for us already without actually leaving!

 

[Thunder Bolt]

She has only one plan to bring to parliament - the one she negociated with the EU. The fact parliament chucked it out is a product of the failure to set up a process from day one, a failure that was actually unavoidable for reasons I explained earlier today.

Her listening is irrelevant. You having legitimate reasons for disliking her are also irrelevant.

Alan Watkins described politicians as bookies or vicars. May, is a vicar. Most are bookies (they see the end game and what success looks like and make their plans based around that, but if what looks like success changes, the objective changes). May has a belief (that we must leave the EU) and nothing will shake that. And she is a convert - converts are the most zealous.

Actually I am tired of talking about this now. Brexit is like the King's New Clothes. I am surprised the nakedness hasn't been mentioned more widely. The right wing commentator that someone (I think it ws you) quoted the other day as admitting Brexit is impossible and therefore wrong is one of the few people who are not still counting the buttons on the Kings raiment.

Do I like Mrs May? No, not at all. For all the reasons you dislike her, and more. But that does not mean I blame her for the Brexit cluster****. I don't wish someone else were tory leader, Boris for example, someone who would have delivered Brexit by now. Why? Because they couldn't and cannot (and Boris and Davies know this - which is why they flounced). Them and others. And also because I don't want someone to appear at the eleventh hour and deliver Brexit. Why the actual **** would I want that? Things are bad enough for us already without actually leaving!

Sorry, but I disagree that Boris or any of his ilk would have delivered Brexit by now. If anything he would've made things worse.

Every Prime Minister since the war has been pro Europe, even whilst negotiating opt outs for us.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

Good grief! Just when you think things couldn't get any more head-mental, Farage just unveiled something called The Brexit Party to fight the European Elections. First candidate he introduces: Ms Rees-Mogg, sister of the Tory member for the eighteenth century

Their logo is an arrow pointing to the right

 

[Pavilionaire]

It's just so typical of this process that the detail has been overlooked, i.e. register your domain names before announcing your business.

www.thebrexitparty.com - another 'Led By Donkeys' triumph. They're exposing how everything Farage does is ill-conceived and tinpot. How and why Cameron ever shat his pants over this charlatan is a complete mystery.

 

[Two Professors]

Afternoon chaps, chappesses,and non-specific,non-binary,non-whatevers,anything exciting happened?No,obviously not.Anybody know who that attractive lady was who Drunker set on fire?Doesn't seem to be on the BBC,can't think why.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Sorry, but I disagree that Boris or any of his ilk would have delivered Brexit by now. If anything he would've made things worse.

Every Prime Minister since the war has been pro Europe, even whilst negotiating opt outs for us.

You misunderstand. My point was that Boris et all would NOT deliver Brexit. Because it cannot be delivered. Which is also the reason why I don't blame May. Read the entire paragraph and it will make sense.

OK?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

You misunderstand. My point was that Boris et all would NOT deliver Brexit. Because it cannot be delivered. Which is also the reason why I don't blame May. Read the entire paragraph and it will make sense.

OK?

I did read the whole paragraph.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I see the Swiss courts yesterday annulled a national referendum outcome because the information presented to the electorate was proved to be flawed.

Nobody in Switzerland is calling this an assault on democracy. It's just the application of known facts and common sense.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

In fairness, the DUP (understandably) always said their red lines were such that they want NI to be treated no differently from the rest of the UK. And this is the folly and irresponsibility of a UK government getting into bed with one side of the sectarian divide. It should never have been considered as a means of hanging onto power.

The fact is, we simply cannot just walk away without solving the Irish border issue. I'd be interested in what [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] and [MENTION=33253]JC Footy Genius[/MENTION] - both happy to get into petty squabbles over the meanings of other Irish referendums and their status - hold up as solutions to this problem. I think it is interesting that [MENTION=599]beorhthelm[/MENTION] - previously a leaver - changed his position, in part because he concluded that it simply can't be done.

It's an interesting question which raises a host of other questions - the first being, is it really impossible to leave a poltical union that started as a trading union ?

As I've already stated, in the long term, I'd like to see a united Ireland. In the meantime I find it rather hypocritical of the DUP to complain about the possibility of NI being treated differently from the rest of the UK ..... they don't seem to mind they don't have council tax, nor water metering or indeed equal abortion rights. May should at least say that if they want NI to be treated the same then they have to allow abortion rights the same as the mainland ?

As to the overall solution - not sure. I find it utterly wrong we can't leave the EU because of a border. That said we have seperate agreements with the ROI about freedom of movement of people and passport entitlement which have nothing to do with the EU so why can't we use these to create a solution ?

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Brexit could easily have been delivered.

EFTA membership - meaning EEA membership. No Customs Union except for Northern Ireland, and a new customs boundary in the Irish Sea.

The best of all worlds - 17.4 million votes in 2016 obeyed, minimal hit on the economy and jobs, ability to do our own trade deals, no membership of CAP, outside EU court jurisdiction, no euro, no ever closer union, no EU army, no membership of the EU parliament.

Someone will no doubt now spout the 'rule takers' nonsense - an unholy joint hatchet job in a pincer movement from both the ERG and People's Vote Zealots.

https://twitter.com/AdrianYalland/status/1073867169723756544?s=19


Oh, and this is all still possible with May's Deal.

 

[ManOfSussex]

It's an interesting question which raises a host of other questions - the first being, is it really impossible to leave a poltical union that started as a trading union ?

As I've already stated, in the long term, I'd like to see a united Ireland. In the meantime I find it rather hypocritical of the DUP to complain about the possibility of NI being treated differently from the rest of the UK ..... they don't seem to mind they don't have council tax, nor water metering or indeed equal abortion rights. May should at least say that if they want NI to be treated the same then they have to allow abortion rights the same as the mainland ?

As to the overall solution - not sure. I find it utterly wrong we can't leave the EU because of a border. That said we have seperate agreements with the ROI about freedom of movement of people and passport entitlement which have nothing to do with the EU so why can't we use these to create a solution ?

You do realise it was The Maastricht Treaty that created the environment for the GFA to happen in the first place?

 

[GrizzlingGammon]

Afternoon chaps, chappesses,and non-specific,non-binary,non-whatevers,anything exciting happened?No,obviously not.Anybody know who that attractive lady was who Drunker set on fire?Doesn't seem to be on the BBC,can't think why.

Care to post a link or anything?

 

[A1X]

Brexit could easily have been delivered.

EFTA membership - meaning EEA membership. No Customs Union except for Northern Ireland, and a new customs boundary in the Irish Sea.

The best of all worlds - 17.4 million votes in 2016 obeyed, minimal hit on the economy and jobs, ability to do our own trade deals, no membership of CAP, outside EU court jurisdiction, no euro, no ever closer union, no EU army, no membership of the EU parliament.

Someone will no doubt now spout the 'rule takers' nonsense - an unholy joint hatchet job in a pincer movement from both the ERG and People's Vote Zealots.

https://twitter.com/AdrianYalland/status/1073867169723756544?s=19


Oh, and this is all still possible with May's Deal.

A few of the former Leave campaigners have essentially said that the Brexiters got greedy, and I think it's hard to disagree with that. "Out, but only just out" is probably the best interpretation of the 2016 result you'll find, but some seemed determined to believe that 52% actually equalled 100%. To push for a really hard Brexit would have been akin to the Remain side winning 52-48 and deciding that was a mandate to join the Euro, Schengen etc. Leavers now claiming 52% means No Deal would have been the equivalent of Remainers saying 52% meant we should become a department of France.

 

[A1X]

[TWEET]1116665325079158784[/TWEET]

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Care to post a link or anything?

Not worth it.

Just Juncker being a bit cack-handed with a ceremonial torch and almost burning the first lady in Rwanda.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I see the sister of the Honrouble Member for the 18th century is standing as an MEP for Farage's Brexit Party.

Annunziata Rees-Mogg - that sounds like something you'd catch off uncooked poultry in southern Africa.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

A few of the former Leave campaigners have essentially said that the Brexiters got greedy, and I think it's hard to disagree with that. "Out, but only just out" is probably the best interpretation of the 2016 result you'll find, but some seemed determined to believe that 52% actually equalled 100%. To push for a really hard Brexit would have been akin to the Remain side winning 52-48 and deciding that was a mandate to join the Euro, Schengen etc. Leavers now claiming 52% means No Deal would have been the equivalent of Remainers saying 52% meant we should become a department of France.

Whereas my ideal outcome - now after 3 years research - is the EFTA membership Brexit, this is exactly why I'd still have to vote 'Remain' in another vote. Any 'Leave' vote is now taken as a vote for the *no deal* cataclysm. Which forces me back into a safety vote for 'Remain'.

 

[Two Professors]

I see the Swiss courts yesterday annulled a national referendum outcome because the information presented to the electorate was proved to be flawed.

Nobody in Switzerland is calling this an assault on democracy. It's just the application of known facts and common sense.

Did they have a referendum about sending it to court?They seem to have at least one a week.

 

[Two Professors]

Care to post a link or anything?

Care to tell us your other identities?

 

[Simster]

It's an interesting question which raises a host of other questions - the first being, is it really impossible to leave a poltical union that started as a trading union ?

As I've already stated, in the long term, I'd like to see a united Ireland. In the meantime I find it rather hypocritical of the DUP to complain about the possibility of NI being treated differently from the rest of the UK ..... they don't seem to mind they don't have council tax, nor water metering or indeed equal abortion rights. May should at least say that if they want NI to be treated the same then they have to allow abortion rights the same as the mainland ?

As to the overall solution - not sure. I find it utterly wrong we can't leave the EU because of a border. That said we have seperate agreements with the ROI about freedom of movement of people and passport entitlement which have nothing to do with the EU so why can't we use these to create a solution ?

There is little there for any sane person to disagree with. Should it be impossible for a sovereign nation to leave the EU? Of course not. Are the DUP hypocrites for the reasons you state - well yes they are. But ultimately, you're a leaver who can't find a solution to that problem - and it IS a problem that needs resolving by those who advocate leaving.

In answer to your final question - presumably because that creates problems over good that need duty and tariffs applied which means a border is necessary. If you look at Norway and Sweden - two countries similarly close culturally - one is in the EU, one isn't. Both are in the Schengen area which means you can travel freely between the two, but guess what, they have borders (for when goods cross the border). That would fly in the face of the GFA here though, so that isn't a solution.