[Politics] Brexit

[Thunder Bolt]

So they just insist that we have the European elections.

Schools are being told to prepare for elections 23rd May.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Cyprus and Gibraltar are separate issues. The Irish hard border in case of no deal, and need of a backstop (CU) as insurance is a negotiating position and not reality, when under no circumstances will a hard border ever be built....it is a red herring. Yes single market rules will insist on a hard border, but politics won't allow it. The Good Friday agreement commits both the UK and Ireland to not have a hard border between NI and Ireland, it's not contingent on EU membership. It also required a devolved assembly is Stormont (and that's not being enacted either).

Obviously the Irish border is a massive issue for both communities either side, keeping it open and free of hard border posts in the number 1 imperative of both UK and Ireland to maintain peace and the GFA. It's why both sides have insisted they won't build a border and why whatever external body may try and insist would be ignored in the greater interest of peace and politics.... The issue is however being used with great effect by the EU as leverage in negotiations.

Gibraltar is not a separate issue. There has been a hard border between Spain and Gib before which has settled down since we became members of the EU. People cross the border every morning and evening for work, and school. Just taking a packed lunch will involved smuggling foodstuffs (an extreme, I know, but still technically correct).

 

[ManOfSussex]

Yeah, but you didn't think they'd offer us an extension from the 29th March.

Yeah, but.....



True, I did and eventually they will pull the plug on this fiasco you voted for.

Still think Labour and Corbyn haven't had a trap royale set for them then?

 

[Diablo]

Is anyone not sick of this ? Do we want another year of this ? Get out now deal or no deal !!

 

[Bold Seagull]

With 2/3rds MP`s being Remain they were going to block Brexit as much as possible ,ERG have not got the numbers .All this soft or hard Brexit is a load of rubbish .When i get on a bus and tell the driver where i want to go i expect him to get me there. Leave should mean leave not this half in half out nonsense.

If only the Leave campaign had been clear, with a manifesto of what leave would mean, then your statement above could be considered as true. Had it been fought on an honest platform of 'Leave Means Leave', no deals, no customs unions, then you would indeed be right.

However, the Leave campaign wasn't fought on Leave Means Leave, it was fought that we would have this and that and they'd want to give us trade deals etc. etc. It always said there would be some form of deal. Your argument is actually with the Leave campaign, because they didn't fight the referendum on a podium of Leave Means Leave, and they should have if your argument were to be true.

 

[Baldseagull]

Middle of the night tiredness. Meant national as in English, French, Welsh, Norwegian etc so please don’t go down the racist road because you couldn’t be more wrong. I believe in devolution and self determination and besides, the era of nation states may well be coming to an end replaced by eg City states, like the old days in Greece, Italy etc. Many say London already is. Borders are always changing, they’re only lines drawn on maps, most of France didn’t speak French until couple centuries ago, Germany is only 150 years old, UK little more than that. Who knows, The Kingdom of South Saxons May rise again! And if the local populace living there wants it like eg catalonia then why not? You can still be friends with your neighbours, people shouldn’t be punished for wanting to rule their own destinies.

More local power is a good thing, but that does not mean there is no role for national or international governance, and for some things global governance. Pilots and air traffic controllers using international airports anywhere in the world all have to speak English, this is from the IATA, its a good rule, it saves lives in emergencies, (I can imagine Farage kicking off about this if it had been an EU rule and the language was French)

As much control and power as possible should be as local as possible. For me that starts with me, cannot get more local than the decisions I can take for myself, and I find the EU gives me more control. I can look for work across a wider area than just the UK, I can source things from further afield and not pay import duties or have it checked for UK compliance. I can marry a woman from Spain or Germany and we can live together without asking permission from UK Government, or any Government in the EU. My kids can go to University in Germany if they are accepted, and pay no tuition fees as German kids do.
But I know you don't mean this, you mean control over what your town or city or county does, and I want that too, but it is UK Governments that have centralised power, and then devolved some to Scotland and Wales. The North East was asked in a referendum if they would like a Parliament of sorts, they said no thanks. Funds given to County and Borough councils from Central Government have been cut, the local authorities then combine operations to save money, so we get Surrey and Sussex police combining services, several London Boroughs combine waste services etc. There are economies of scale to be had that benefit everyone and allow the local authorities to spend a bit more on parks and leisure etc.
For me the EU does a lot of this sort of work, where co-operation between states means that we all pay a little less for the sort of bureaucracy that is necessary, but it also stops the sort of competition between member states that is detrimental to all. Of course it does not get everything right, nor do I when I make decisions, your local council, county council or UK Government, and I am up for holding all to account, asking for better, but they all have a role, including the EU, that is largely beneficial.
Leaving the EU fixes nothing, the issues of not enough schools and Hospitals is due to our National Government, there are limited services at Crawley Hospital, I was born there, but no maternity services now, the Primary school I went to was closed and is housing now, West Sussex justified this as they said the Birth rate in West Sussex and Crawley in particular had fallen significantly, well of course it did, everyone from Crawley was now giving birth in East Surrey Hospital. Most of the school playing fields in Crawley have been reduced in size and sold for housing. Sold because the Local Authorities needed the cash, but for all the new homes, there are no new schools and less Hospital services. UK central Government funding and the rules it sets about right to buy housing, and the rules it sets about what a local authority can do with that money are a problem, a much bigger problem than any EU law, for local authorities.

 

[golddene]

A long read but makes the case very well why even staying in is better than a CU, it's written by Greg Hands a Tory MP but he's worked under Liam fox for 2 years. If you read it, I'd be interested if you still think a CU is a good idea! https://www.greghands.com/news/five-main-reasons-why-eu-customs-union-would-be-worst-choice-all

Staying in was and is the best for our economy, to satisfy the wishes of leavers this compromise was reached, a crap deal but it does what a small majority of those who voted decided they wanted. Now we have this predictable charade of "it's not all we wanted" well Peter, it's not what remainers would ultimately want either. Compromise is key or vote again, quite simple.

 

[peterward]

So they just insist that we have the European elections.

I'm sure they will Trig, May's problem is she said she'd resign not only if her deal gets through but also if we extend beyond 30 June as taking part in EU elections 3 years after voting to leave, plus brexiteers in her cabinet and party (who overwhelmingly disagree with her current direction) are threatening mass resignations if she does extend long and/or hold EU elections...... Who want to be Theresa, she's got nowhere to turn after he bungled negotiation.

 

[Triggaaar]

Whilst you're accusing others of waffling, please think about the whole picture. The Good Friday Agreement is an international treaty signed under the auspices of the United Nations. It meant both sides being free to trade without a border because both sides were in the EU.

Then look at Gibraltar and Spain. Gibraltar has an MEP in the EU Parliament. They vote along with the South West of England, so there is a similar situation there as in Ireland.
Then there is Cyprus. Our British bases in Cyprus are British territory.

It isn't waffle.

But the point is, would anyone build any sort of border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. The answer is no, it wouldn't happen. You realise that, right?

 

[pb21]

If only the Leave campaign had been clear, with a manifesto of what leave would mean, then your statement above could be considered as true. Had it been fought on an honest platform of 'Leave Means Leave', no deals, no customs unions, then you would indeed be right.

However, the Leave campaign wasn't fought on Leave Means Leave, it was fought that we would have this and that and they'd want to give us trade deals etc. etc. It always said there would be some form of deal. Your argument is actually with the Leave campaign, because they didn't fight the referendum on a podium of Leave Means Leave, and they should have if your argument were to be true.

Much easier to get people to vote for something where they are offered an option in which the voter is able to define what it is they are voting for.

It was clever, but irresponsible IMO.

 

[peterward]

Gibraltar is not a separate issue. There has been a hard border between Spain and Gib before which has settled down since we became members of the EU. People cross the border every morning and evening for work, and school. Just taking a packed lunch will involved smuggling foodstuffs (an extreme, I know, but still technically correct).

Well in as much as Gibraltar would also be non EU that's the only similarity, but the accomodation/border agreement/deal with Spain is already agreed, wether we leave with no deal or CU. It has no future bearing like the backstop would and most trade to Gib is by air and sea not land.

For Spain, my guess is they're happy we're leaving as Gib is pro remain it would only increase any chance they may have in any future referendum (they hope for)

 

[Triggaaar]

Still think Labour and Corbyn haven't had a trap royale set for them then?

I gave my argument why it can't be a trap, and you didn't respond

 

[Mellotron]

Is anyone not sick of this ?

Yup - almost like what was promised in the first place was undeliverable.

 

[Baldseagull]

Waffle...... It's not going to happen, both the Irish and the UK have said there will be no hard border in the event if no deal..... Do you think the EU will build it on Irish soil? The Irish will not build it regardless of what the EU say..... You don't seem to understand that the legal/technical reasons to build a hard border EU and non EU country are far outweighed and superceded by realpolitik. The good Friday agreement and peace in Ireland. That is, will and will always come before any legal basis.... There is nobody who will build your imaginary border posts.

I thought you also realised that the customs union doesn't solve the border issues? Do you understand what the CU is and how it works? Obviously not, the customs union proposed in the backstop is not about solving the Irish border problem because the customs union can't........

You know the British and Irish between themselves had made technical progress on the Irish border/good Friday agreement early in this process, when the EU insisted to Ireland, to end all bilateral talks and only let the EU deal with the UK, after which the backstop emerged and May, stupidly agreed...... The backstop (customs union ) is nothing to do with borders or tariff free trade as an insurance policy (as branded) it is the bridge to the exact future relationship the EU insists we have with them(CU), thus why we can't escape it unless they allow us. It's the reason that even though the EU plan to use technology to do checks away from the border in event of no deal on Irish insistence and neither UK or Ireland will build border posts, when we ask for the same to replace backstop, they say it's not possible. The Irish hard border is the biggest red herring in the whole brexit process. Politics always trump's technicality.

The reason we can't escape it unless we have something else in place is the same reason you cant knock a wall down in your lounge until you have a steel beam in there to support the wall above. It is there to do a job, and until something else can do that job it needs to be there. That is, if we want the EU to play ball and give us a nice long withdrawal period and talk about a trade deal.
If we go no deal, we make life hard for Ireland, one of the members, and the EU will not be doing us any favours until we help to resolve that, I mean, if it was us as a member getting shafted by a former member leaving, we would expect our Union to support us wouldn't we?

 

[Triggaaar]

Brilliant move !

They rejected that date last request.

*rolls eyes*. Again.

To be fair, she's quite experienced at asking the same thing having been turned down multiple times before.

 

[peterward]

Staying in was and is the best for our economy, to satisfy the wishes of leavers this compromise was reached, a crap deal but it does what a small majority of those who voted decided they wanted. Now we have this predictable charade of "it's not all we wanted" well Peter, it's not what remainers would ultimately want either. Compromise is key or vote again, quite simple.

First, for the long term economic future remain is not the best option.
Second, in a parallel universe where remain won in June 2016, would you be talking about compromise or another referendum to see if remain was really what they wanted?

 

[Mellotron]

First, for the long term economic future remain is not the best option.
Second, in a parallel universe where remain won in June 2016, would you be talking about compromise or another referendum to see if remain was really what they wanted?

First - utter bollocks with no proof to back it up whatsoever
Second - If Remain proved to be as undeliverable as a Leave that satisfies Leave voters, then of course.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I gave my argument why it can't be a trap, and you didn't respond

I'll take that as you don't then.

 

[albion68]

And how would you know where the 2a is going ? You would know because they publish a Route Plan before they start running the service

How do you know what the Remain plan was ? i guess you would have to ask Brussels would they tell you ? they make up any rules that take their fancy .

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Well in as much as Gibraltar would also be non EU that's the only similarity, but the accomodation/border agreement/deal with Spain is already agreed, wether we leave with no deal or CU. It has no future bearing like the backstop would and most trade to Gib is by air and sea not land.

For Spain, my guess is they're happy we're leaving as Gib is pro remain it would only increase any chance they may have in any future referendum (they hope for)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39453535