[Politics] Brexit

[CHAPPERS]

Make everyone read this and then vote again then if people still want to leave you can give the rest of us time to move across into somewhere nice like Narbonne or somewhere eh?

Welcome to Disneyland. Leading Brexiter Jacob Rees-Mogg is playing Mickey Mouse as the sorcerer’s apprentice from Fantasia; Theresa May is the wicked witch from Snow White — though she is short on magic. Across the pond, an evil ogre known as Donald Trump is waiting to eat us all up.

It’s grim; but it’s a great learning experience. Has anyone learnt? Has former Brexit secretary David Davis worked out that his plan to leave the EU while retaining “the exact same benefits” as staying in the single market, was a little ambitious? Or that the Germans actually care more about the integrity of the EU than about selling Brits BMWs? Has Michael Gove finally noticed that we did not after all “hold all the cards” the day after we voted to leave? Has anyone worked out that frictionless trade is quite complicated, and that the dreary Brussels machinery does a good job for us?

We shouldn’t count on it. It is easier to blame others. Britain triggered Article 50 without having a clue what we wanted or how we were going to get it. The European Commission, by contrast, knew exactly what it was doing: the diplomats in Brussels are masters of negotiation. After all, they have been doing it for years — for us, and for the rest of the EU. Notice that they take direction from their political masters at the start, consult them as they go along, and return to them at the end. The commission is dealing with sovereign states. Our government might consider doing the same with its sovereign parliament.

Another lesson: the EU is bigger than Britain. If we leave without an agreement, that is a nuisance for the EU — about 10 per cent of their trade is with us. For us, they represent 49 per cent and no deal risks being a catastrophe. The idea that this is an important bargaining chip is ridiculous. One day — we cannot ignore our neighbours forever — we will be back at the table, helpless on our side, furious on theirs.

Why is the EU being so nasty? We thought we were friends. So we were: in the EU you do business with each other every day, no matter what. In the days when we were hardly speaking to the Germans about Iraq, we still worked together to stop other members cheating on milk quotas. You never break up completely. The EU is a system of compulsory friendships.

But, with apologies to Shakespeare, take that bond away, “untune that string, and hark, what discord follows”. When you choose to be an outsider, you are treated as one. The smallest insiders (Dublin in the case of Brexit) matter more than the biggest outsider (us). The systems we have helped build up over the years must be defended against outsiders seeking special privileges. There is no way of being half in and half out, no having cake and eating it. The dish turns out to be humble pie, anyway.

It is late to be learning lessons. Why did the UK not bring in those who learnt them long ago? John Major, Chris Patten and Jonathan Hill, for example. What foolishness to lose Ivan Rogers, who presumably resigned as the UK’s permanent representative to the EU because he told the truth. Why did the government not make use of John Kerr, who drafted Article 50 and Stephen Wall who wrote the history of Britain and the EU? Now a new volume is needed. The ignorance of Westminster about Europe is appalling — we have some good MEPs who could help, but they don’t have security passes for the House of Commons.

How remarkable that 27 sovereign states have worked so well together when the UK is so divided. Mrs May talks about delivering for the 17m who voted to Leave. What about the others? Wouldn’t the government be in a stronger position if it had built a bipartisan consensus?

There are two big lessons. First we are paying the price of our failure for years to explain the EU. What is it for? Security. It delivers good political relations among neighbours — the best guarantee of security you can get. We have benefited very directly from this. Being in the EU together meant that for the first time we worked with Dublin as equals. That, and the open border, enabled peace in Ireland. In Britain, no one noticed. The EU is a political project: the customs union and the single market are means to an end. Why did no one tell us?

The second lesson is that we are governed by the parties for the parties. The system would never get past a decent competition regulator. Most people know that it makes no difference how they vote. We are the oldest parliamentary democracy, and it shows.

Government by slogan does not work. Are we taking back control or handing it over to Brussels? By the time we find out, it will be too late. If the UK prime minister had a sense of humour, she would set up the committee of inquiry now, so it could take evidence in real time, as the tragedy unfolds.

 

[Mellotron]

I see when it was pointed out in cabinet yesterday that no deal would mean direct rule in Northern Ireland among other things, Andrea Leadsom is reported to have suggested we just call it something else to get round the problem.

I've read/heard a number of comments from her now that lead me to believe she is REALLY ****ing thick.

 

[nicko31]

Another referendum with a remain option is simply another IN/OUT referendum. This is the part that horrifies people who have concerns about the democratic accountability of parliament to the people. It is nothing to do with potentially losing a re-run vote(leave would win again anyway) it is the absolute disastrous harm that would be done by telling the people to vote again. It would be catastrophic to go down that route.
Best go with your prefered option two, no referendum at all. Leave the EU.
Just imagine if brexit doesnt work out (it will be fine) you can them democratically hold the tories to account and back a rejoin party and government and democratically hold a referendum on rejoining.
The leave vote has been respected, the public gets to drain the swamp in parliament after and there is a further democratic vote on rejoining after we have left- the resulting decision from that MUST be respected and adhered to as well.

If you would win by a mile as the Nige says, don't get in a sweat about it..........

Anyway, another vote wouldn't be the same. Whilst in your mind you might still be seeing unicorns, the reality is the populus would be voting on what Brexit is, and what is deliverable. Not the fantasies pedaled by illegal money from Vote Leave...

 

[CHAPPERS]

Wahey!

[tweet]1113389151230005248[/tweet]

 

[n1 gull]

PMQ's might be a bit strange today

 

[Stat Brother]

PMQ's might be a bit strange today

Today?

 

[ManOfSussex]

This country is a bit strange.

[tweet]1113391427050930176[/tweet]

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

If you would win by a mile as the Nige says, don't get in a sweat about it..........

Anyway, another vote wouldn't be the same. Whilst in your mind you might still be seeing unicorns, the reality is the populus would be voting on what Brexit is, and what is deliverable. Not the fantasies pedaled by illegal money from Vote Leave...

The targeted facebook mis-information hasn't stopped. ( Example - that Lisbon Treaty nonsense ).

Don't forget that those who are not targeted don't see it, but it is still there - still mis-informing, still twisting British minds, still encouraging other British minds not to vote.

We have done nothing to stop it.

So we must expect the same result a 2nd time.


No salvation in a 2nd vote. Fools Gold.

 

[The Clamp]

Brexiteers squealing “you will respect the vote”!! sound like weak supply teachers trying to control a class.

 

[pastafarian]

If you would win by a mile as the Nige says, don't get in a sweat about it..........

Anyway, another vote wouldn't be the same. Whilst in your mind you might still be seeing unicorns, the reality is the populus would be voting on what Brexit is, and what is deliverable. Not the fantasies pedaled by illegal money from Vote Leave...

Completely missing the point.
Leave does not need to win again, that one off decision on leaving or remaining has been taken.
If in years to come there is a referendum on rejoining/staying out and rejoin wins, i would be equally horrified if a potential pro stay out parliament at that time tried to manipulate parliamentary votes so that the vote was done again.
Be careful what you wish for.

 

[nicko31]

This country is a bit strange.

[tweet]1113391427050930176[/tweet]

Will Gavin Williamson act?

 

[beorhthelm]

Make everyone read this and then vote again then if people still want to leave you can give the rest of us time to move across into somewhere nice like Narbonne or somewhere eh?

There are two big lessons. First we are paying the price of our failure for years to explain the EU. What is it for? Security. It delivers good political relations among neighbours — the best guarantee of security you can get. We have benefited very directly from this. Being in the EU together meant that for the first time we worked with Dublin as equals. That, and the open border, enabled peace in Ireland. In Britain, no one noticed. The EU is a political project: the customs union and the single market are means to an end. Why did no one tell us?

true enough. and yet we still dont see this, even in the article not really selling this. we could start by dropping the "EU doesn't need us and our piffling 10% trade" which isnt true and sets up an adversarial position. they will certainly miss that trade if it did indeed go, tourism especially, enough to tip EU into recession. advocating mutual advantage is preferable isn't?

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

https://twitter.com/EFTA4UK/status/1113107204838699011?s=19

Quite.

 

[nicko31]

Completely missing the point.
Leave does not need to win again, that one off decision on leaving or remaining has been taken.
If in years to come there is a referendum on rejoining/staying out and rejoin wins, i would be equally horrified if a potential pro stay out parliament at that time tried to manipulate parliamentary votes so that the vote was done again.
Be careful what you wish for.

If the ERG want Brexit, then FFS vote for May's deal. We're in this state of deadlock because they think unicorns still exist, they don't...

When are they going to face the reality of their own lies, they need to do the right thing and own up to all those they conned.

And where are Farage, Davis, Boris now? All run away, lining their pockets while good honest people are counting the cost of being misled...

 

[Triggaaar]

View attachment 107010

That's brilliant

 

[nicko31]

The targeted facebook mis-information hasn't stopped. ( Example - that Lisbon Treaty nonsense ).

Don't forget that those who are not targeted don't see it, but it is still there - still mis-informing, still twisting British minds, still encouraging other British minds not to vote.

We have done nothing to stop it.

So we must expect the same result a 2nd time.


No salvation in a 2nd vote. Fools Gold.

No to win heart and minds, not be scared off by those that pedal lies and misinformation.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

No to win heart and minds, not be scared off by those that pedal lies and misinformation.

Lies and mis-information are not beaten by facts and truth ( sadly ).

They are only beaten by cutting off the source. This hasn't been done.

 

[Triggaaar]

She's more the person dressed in black in this shot....

That's Darth Vader.

 

[Steve.S]

The secret plan that was set out clearly in Labour’s 2017 manifesto that got their biggest ever vote share swing?

Page 23. Hardly a cat out of the bag is it when it’s spelled out in black and white.

http://https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/labour-manifesto-2017.pdf

How many people read manifestos? Politics is all about sound bites.

 

[Steve.S]

Can't see this happening. Given that the DUP have said they won't support it and there are hardliners in the ERG who won't, she'll need more Labour votes. Trying to shaft Labour isn't going to encourage more to vote for her deal

There are a good 30 Labour MPs who would not accept customs union and free movement. She doesn’t need DUP if she can get the Labour hard line brexiters