[Politics] Brexit

[Albumen]

How many would you like seeing its been headline news?

https://www.google.co.uk/#q=accelerated+eu+membership+turkey

The Express have backtracked today saying they have no evidence of the number of Turks that would be interested in moving to the UK. All fabricated by the Express, as usual.

 

[beorhthelm]

Has anybody seen a strong rationale for Remain that is NOT driven solely by economics? I might have missed it.

There's plenty out there. Google is your friend.

so thats a "no" then. it is striking that Remain have never made a case for being in the EU, instead they've made a great deal about why you should be against leaving. even within the economic context, its all about what you'd lose if you leave, not how you benefit if you remain. they have never made a case for freedom of movement, closer integration, etc.

instead when pushed they try to claim core tenets of membership don't really apply to the UK, we're going to have a special deal with the EU, promise. but we already know that isn't viable because no undertakings agreed are in a treaty, many nations opposed them and will do so formally when it comes up for the next treaty.

 

[beorhthelm]

Still don't see any provision for an EU army, .

try looking in article 42 of the Lisbon Treaty, "provisions on the common security and defence policy".

 

[5ways]

Blinded by titles, appeals from authority and so it continues ...

George Akerlof

Asymmetrical information

Kenneth Arrow

Social choice theory

Angus Deaton

Consumption, poverty and welfare

Peter Diamond

Labour market search and match

James Heckman

Statistical methods to correct selection bias

Eric Maskin

Mechanism design theory

James Mirrlees

Moral hazard, asymmetrical information and optimal taxation theory

Christopher Pissarides

Labour market search and match

Robert Solow

Exogenous growth model

Jean Tirole

Dual sided markets

All very bright men and all Nobels thoroughly deserved for excellent work and insights. And yet none of them really experts in the precise details of the subject under discussion. We are rather here akin to discussing how to treat cancer with some of the world’s best orthopedists, heart surgeons and urologists rather than with an oncologist.

But the real error here is the failure to properly consider Bastiat. The choice to be made on Thursday is not whether we remain within the European Union as it is or set sail into the uncertain seas of restored sovereignty (also known as we get to do what we want not what they want). Rather, our choice is whether to continue sailing in the SS European Union off to that proposed nirvana of a centralised continental superstate with a common treasury, the idiocy of the euro and fiscal union, or whether we decide to take matters into our own hands and protect ourselves from such nonsenses.

I would rather appeal to authority than appeal to ignorance. Gove 'sick of experts' sums up the whole anti-intellectual stance of the Leave campaign. As Phillip Pullman said

"Re Michael Gove's disdain for 'experts: when a clever man starts advocating stupidity he's after something, and we should watch him."

 

[drew]

A quick visit to her wiki page and the former Vice President of the Commission opinions/views are conveniently ignored ... nice.

I didn't say I would ignore them but I would put far more credence to the views of someone who has studied, published, lectured on the subject.

 

[East Preston Gull]

By voting to stay in the EU we are giving the commissioners a mandate to push things through at their will. Cameron has proved already he has no power and no courage to stand up for our rights. We will be pushed into greater union, we will be pushed into the Euro, Turkey will be fast tracked into some sought of travel free arrangement, we will have a Euro "defense force", we will be paying up to equalise the finances of the 28 member states. I absolutely guarantee this will happen in the next 10 years. We are being sold down the river by spivs and beurocrats.


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[Bold Seagull]

so thats a "no" then. it is striking that Remain have never made a case for being in the EU, instead they've made a great deal about why you should be against leaving. even within the economic context, its all about what you'd lose if you leave, not how you benefit if you remain. they have never made a case for freedom of movement, closer integration, etc.

instead when pushed they try to claim core tenets of membership don't really apply to the UK, we're going to have a special deal with the EU, promise. but we already know that isn't viable because no undertakings agreed are in a treaty, many nations opposed them and will do so formally when it comes up for the next treaty.

Okay, the flip side is why haven't Leave made a practical case of what our deal with Europe outside the EU will look like?

The Leave campaign have often cited Norway and Switzerland as examples of trading with Europe outside the EU, but in the case of Norway, their deal to be in the EEA involves them agreeing to the free movement of the Schengen Zone. They have more EU immigration than us, and have no say on any matters within the EU. They are for all intents and purposes in the EU without having any say in it.

The Leave campaign, could easily have set out a strong economic case for Britain's relationship with Europe outside the EU, however this almost certainly would have involved admitting that any deal to be in the EEA would be accepting free movement as we have now. However, that would reveal that the foundation of Brexit of controlled immigration is likely to be a fallacy. Other countries like Switzerland and Norway have to accept EU free movement when negotiating their individual trade agreements.

For many Leaver's, such as in the Telegraph yesterday, this is a frustrating criticism of the Leave campaign. For them the economic case could have been fought on much stronger ground if the immigration card had been dropped. The short term calculation of voters going for 'controlled immigration' is likely to backfire if it loses more voters for a poor economic case.

 

[5ways]

By voting to stay in the EU we are giving the commissioners a mandate to push things through at their will. Cameron has proved already he has no power and no courage to stand up for our rights. We will be pushed into greater union, we will be pushed into the Euro, Turkey will be fast tracked into some sought of travel free arrangement, we will have a Euro "defense force", we will be paying up to equalise the finances of the 28 member states. I absolutely guarantee this will happen in the next 10 years. We are being sold down the river by spivs and beurocrats.


Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

Nope. We have no ever closer union, a referendum on any powers transferred to Brussels, and a Euro opt-out. Still no evidence of an EU army.

 

[pb21]

it is striking that Remain have never made a case for being in the EU.

Er, yes they have?!

Have you actually read or listened to anything the remain camp have said? The remain moto is "stronger, better off and safer" just for starters! Everyday they go on about how being part of the EU enables us a to act in ways we couldn’t if we left. The increased workers rights environmental protection etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum...

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Really not overly impressed by getting a pressure email on how the staff of the company I work for should vote

 

[East Preston Gull]

Nope. We have no ever closer union, a referendum on any powers transferred to Brussels, and a Euro opt-out. Still no evidence of an EU army.

There was a moment in the dimberley debate last night when Cameron was getting a grilling. He said a telling line" I will not be prime minister by then" He can walk away and let someone else sign away the UK.
We will join the Euro and will take part in every aspect of EU membership. The UK will cease to be an independent country. We will be the 33rd state of the USofE.

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[5ways]

try looking in article 42 of the Lisbon Treaty, "provisions on the common security and defence policy".

Still nothing about an EU army.

 

[Albumen]

Really not overly impressed by getting a pressure email on how the staff of the company I work for should vote

Presumably they're trying to keep you in a job?

 

[portslade seagull]

Presumably they're trying to keep you in a job?

If you believe that I feel sorry for you. The world will not suddenly stop

 

[pastafarian]

I'll bite. Why won't it? If the majority vote for leave, surely the majority are dead against the EU. With Gove, Johnson and Farage's rhetoric, them as leaders of the country will try and fight the EU until the end. To what end? I guess it depends how much you believe the Express maybe?

you do realise this is a vote for IN or OUT dont you?
this isnt a vote for Gove Johnson and Farage to be leaders of the country.

there was a wally on the radio recently saying he was voting remain because he didnt want farage running the country if we leave.
i wonder how many other wallies are out there not understanding how elections work

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I would rather appeal to authority than appeal to ignorance. Gove 'sick of experts' sums up the whole anti-intellectual stance of the Leave campaign. As Phillip Pullman said

"Re Michael Gove's disdain for 'experts: when a clever man starts advocating stupidity he's after something, and we should watch him."

I do think this debate on experts is rather pointless. Experts are clearly just that ie experts. There is no disdain for their abilities or their opinions. Rather, the point is being made that we cannot run a society by asking their opinion and just going ahead. Do you remember the collapse of the LTCM hedge fund in 1998 ? Two of the traders/owners were Myron Scholes and Robert Merton, eminent economists who pretty much wrote option theory which is widely used in financial markets and for instance the pricing of insurance risk. They nearly brought down the world economy !! I am grateful for the opinion of economists but in this instance I feel that they are not factoring in the most important issues to me because they do not see my issues as a negative. Therefore the alternative to your 'appeal to authority' is not an 'appeal to ignorance', it is simply a different world view and having such disdain for it will not advance this debate.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Presumably they're trying to keep you in a job?

6 months ago they told us being in or out wont make a difference.....

 

[portslade seagull]

you do realise this is a vote for IN or OUT dont you?
this isnt a vote for Gove Johnson and Farage to be leaders of the country.

there was a wally on the radio recently saying he was voting remain because he didnt want farage running the country if we leave.
i wonder how many other wallies are out there not understanding how elections work

Od dear they need to realise Cameron will still be in a job as will anybody else involved. Nothing will change until 2020 at the earliest. Pessimistic remain lot. Maybe the ABBA song would be more appropriate money money money is all that matters to them

 

[El Presidente]

so thats a "no" then. it is striking that Remain have never made a case for being in the EU, instead they've made a great deal about why you should be against leaving. even within the economic context, its all about what you'd lose if you leave, not how you benefit if you remain. they have never made a case for freedom of movement, closer integration, etc.

instead when pushed they try to claim core tenets of membership don't really apply to the UK, we're going to have a special deal with the EU, promise. but we already know that isn't viable because no undertakings agreed are in a treaty, many nations opposed them and will do so formally when it comes up for the next treaty.

There's plenty of good reasons

Access to a free capital, labour and trade market that helps generate jobs and attract inward investment
Collaboration on science and research funded across the EU for universities
Acting in concert against Russia with trade sanctions in relation to the conflict with the Ukraine
Environmental legislation to achieve cleaner beaches
A competition policy that prevents large global companies from dictating terms to individual countries
Reaching out to the east of Europe in the collapse of the soviet regime to encourage democracy

 

[looney]

The Express have backtracked today saying they have no evidence of the number of Turks that would be interested in moving to the UK. All fabricated by the Express, as usual.

Link?