[Politics] Brexit

[Herr Tubthumper]

I'm cutting this thread short, I can see where we are heading. If there are NSC users out there that might have been offended, I am sorry.

No need to apologise. My overall point was which ever way it goes we just have to accept it I think. The campaign has been disasterous on both sides. I really would want to say one side is more disasterous then the other though. Let's assume it will balance itself out in the voting...if you get what I mean.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

HT are you on a personal vendetta against any leave supporter looking at your posts it seems you are

No. I'm just replying to posts as I see fit. If I agree, I usually give it a thumbs up. If I disagree I tend to post a reply partly because there's no thumbs down option and often there's something to challenge. A couple of reasoned replies to bashlsdir is no vendetta.

Care to expand on this?

 

[drew]

bashlsdir, don't be too depressed - if we vote Remain on Thursday there will always be another opportunity to get out. Parliament can vote to Leave at any point (we don't need a Referendum). Obviously a vote in the House of Commons at the moment would result in an overwhelming Remain vote (over 400 MPs are in favour of remaining). But that might not always be the case. You could easily imagine a scenario where the EU did NOT reform, where Turkey miraculously met all its conditions and was fast-tracked, etc, etc, and the 2020 General Election was run on the basis of an "Out" campaign. If the post-2020 House of Commons comprised a majority of Brexiteers, then they could just hold a vote, and we'd be out. So, I think the reverse is true - if we vote Leave we will never be able to get back in, but if we vote Remain, we will always have the option to leave in the future.

And, just to reassure you, I am not one of those who have just listened to the government spin. For what its worth my two motivations are (a) I want the UK to be outward-looking, compassionate, welcoming, a nation that embraces change, and a part of Europe; (b) I read the FT every day, and have been convinced by the economic arguments of many people much cleverer than me. What the government has said hasn't swayed me one iota.

Exactly, we have another chance to leave whenever we want however, we won't have a chance to get back in, at least not on the terms we have at the moment and almost certainly more detrimental. If we vote Remain, we can see the effect the reforms may have on migration, ie no benefits for a certain time etc. If it doesn't work, we could always have another referendum in, say, 5 years. If we vote leave, there is no going back. If we leave and want access to the free market (as per Norway and Switzerland) we have to pay and we have to allow free movement. The EU will insist on that so we will have to abide by their rules without being in a position to shape those rules. We will also have to pay. Using the Norway example again, they currently pay a similar amount to us per head.

So, to get this right.

If we leave, we still have to allow free movement, we will still pay about the same, we are likely to face a period of economic uncertainty whilst we negotiate our 'divorce' and then whilst we try and negotiate trade deals with the rest of the world. We would of course be outside of the TTIP negotiations between the US and the EU but then we would have very similar conditions imposed on us by the US as our negotiations with the biggest national economy will be from a position of weakness.

If we vote to remain, we have a say in TTIP negotiations, we can see if the reforms reduce migration, we have a say on who joins the EU, we remain part of the biggest trading area in the world and negotiations with other countries are from a position of strength. And probably the biggest of all is that we can vote about it again.#

However, if your beef is about so called sovereignty then I make no apology for posting this video again which explains it better than anything else I have seen or heard. If you think your decision to vote Leave is one of the biggest you'll have to make then spare 24 minutes to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y

 

[Westdene Seagull]

H I am sorry that I don't have to hand any equally mendacious crap from the other camp to scan and post, but if you have some do feel free to post it.

Yes you do - you have the equally 'mendacious crap' sent to you by the government BEFORE campaigning started and outside the campaign spending rules ..... but apparently it doesn't count if it comes from the government !

 

[drew]

Not sure he cares as it seems he is only worried about money like most of the city

There are 742m people in the EU but for some reason they haven't all come to the UK!!!!

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Well that's cleared that up then. If Toby Young says it's a fact then it must be. Or is it.

Firstly, dealing with his rant about commissioners. He is of course right that they are not elected however, there is one for each country and it is up to each country to nominate someone. ie, the elected government nominate someone. Secondly, he again rants on about the commissioners creating the laws. Presumably he is aware that they are working under the instructions of the member states and there is no point them drafting laws if no one is going to vote them through. He tries to paint a picture of that they are holed up in some darkened room coming up with laws that nobody wants!!! Does it not occur to him that the commissioners are no different to the unelected civil service that operate on behalf of the government?

Secondly, he makes reference to sovereignty and the number of laws affected by the EU. I have been sent the attached link by Michael Dougan from Liverpool University, a lecturer on EU law (his video has been posted several times but I suspect not watched by most Leave voters) which dispels the myth about the amount of interference in our law making by the EU.

https://theconversation.com/fact-check-are-60-of-uk-laws-really-imposed-by-the-eu-58516

Is he as well informed as EU Justice Commissioner, Viviane Reding, Vice President of the European Commission (2010 - 2014)?

https://vimeo.com/86013794

 

[5ways]

you believe there is a limit where immigration becomes unsustainable but dont know what it is yet.
at that point where it crosses your threshold you would say enough is enough and inward migration should be controlled.

and yet you want to remain in a club that wont let you control any of this.
You are simply a bunch of hypocrites whose threshold for immigration happens to be higher than brexiters.....your idealistic arguments for free movement suddenly disappear when you lot put a figure on mass immigration

Why is that hypocritical?

You gave me a hypothetical question and I gave you a hypothetical answer.

 

[lawros left foot]

Hot weather forecast for the weekend coming from the Continent, if we vote leave it won't be allowed in !!

 

[JC Footy Genius]

'People often complain about voting these days. They say it doesn’t make any difference. They say that whatever party they choose they get the same old broken promises. In fact, they say there is no point in bothering at all. Well, whatever you say about this referendum campaign, it is a moment of fundamental decision. When you pick up your ballot paper this Thursday, you have it in your hands to transform Britain’s current democratic arrangements for the better. You can change the whole course of European history – and if you vote Leave, I believe that change will be overwhelmingly positive.

What is the Remain camp offering? Nothing. No change, no improvement, no reform; nothing but the steady and miserable erosion of parliamentary democracy in this country. If we vote Remain, we stay locked in the back of the car, driven by someone with an imperfect command of English, and going a direction we don’t want to go.

If Britain votes to Remain in the EU, then we continue to be subject to an increasingly anti-democratic system that is now responsible for 60 per cent of the law that goes through Westminster – a phenomenon that contributes so powerfully to the modern voter’s apathy, the sensation that we no longer control our destiny, and that voting changes nothing.

If we vote Remain, we do nothing to rebuke the elites in Brussels who have imposed the euro on the continent, and thrown a generation of young people on the scrap-heap, and who are utterly indifferent to the misery they are causing for the sake of their bankrupt ideology.

We will remain prisoners of a trade regime that will not allow this country – the fifth biggest economy on earth – to negotiate with America, or China or India or any of the other growth economies of the world; because that privilege is reserved exclusively for the hierarchs of the European Commission, of whose vast staff only 3.6 per cent come from this country.

If we stay, we will find our global influence and weight not enhanced, but diminished – as the EU ruthlessly cuckoos us aside from our seat on international bodies, from the IMF and the UN and the WTO to even the North East Atlantic Fisheries Management Board, which determines the fate of the fish in so much of UK waters. Iceland has a seat; Norway has a seat; the Faroe islands have a seat. The UK is represented by the Commission.

We are not more powerful, or more influential for being around the table in Brussels – look at the pitiful results of the so-called renegotiation earlier this year. We are drowned out. And it is an illusion to think that if we vote to Remain, we are somehow opting for the status quo. The status quo is not on offer. If we stay in, we will be engaged willy-nilly in the desperate attempt to keep the euro together, by building an economic government of Europe. We have already seen how we can be forced to bail out the debtor nations; and we have seen – in the absence of border controls – how the despair in southern Europe contributes to the substantial flows of migration, which show no sign of diminishing. If we vote to stay then I am afraid the whole EU caravan carries blithely on; and when I think of the champagne – guzzling orgy of backslapping in Brussels that would follow a Remain vote on Friday, I want to weep. We must not let it happen.

Think of what we can achieve if we vote Leave. We can take back control of huge sums of money – £10.6 billion net per year – and spend it on our priorities. We can take back control of our borders, and install an Australian-style points-based system that is fair both to people coming from the EU and from non-EU countries.

We can do global trade deals that the EU commission itself believes could generate another 300,000 jobs. Above all we could take back control of our powers to pass laws and set tax rates in the interest of the UK economy. We can reorientate the UK economy to the whole world, rather than confining ourselves to an EU that now amounts to only 15 per cent of global GDP.

Why shouldn’t we do this? When in the history of this country have we gone wrong by believing in self-government? As this campaign has gone on, the Remain campaign has become more and more hysterical in its threats and warnings, to the point where very few people now believe in them. The IMF? Why on earth should the Treasury expect us to believe the IMF – when it was only a couple of years ago that the Treasury was bitterly (and correctly) denouncing the IMF for running Britain down. People can sense the true motives behind Project Fear. It isn’t idealism, or internationalism. It’s a cushy elite of politicians and lobbyists and bureaucrats, circling the wagons and protecting their vested interests.

Finally the Remainers are now desperately trying to suggest that anyone who wants to Leave is somehow against the spirit of modern Britain; against openness, tolerance, decency. What nonsense – and what an insult to the people of all races and parties and ages and beliefs who simply want to take back control of this country’s democracy.

It is we who want to give power back to people. It is we who want to stand up against the corporatist and elitist system that will never admit its mistakes. That is why we believe in democracy – because it is the best way humanity has found of correcting the errors of our rulers; and we are mad to throw it away.

Now is the time to believe in ourselves, and in what Britain can do, and to remember that we always do best when we believe in ourselves. Of course we can continue to provide leadership and support for Europe – but intergovernmentally, outside the supranational EU system.

I hope you will vote Leave, and take back control of this great country’s destiny; and if we Vote Leave, then all our votes will count for more in the future. This chance will not come again in our lifetimes, and I pray we do not miss it.'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-thursday-because-well-never-get-this-chance/

 

[5ways]

the same Xavier Rolet pressing ahead with a merger between LSE and Deutsche Borse. he doesnt seem to have much concern of the uncertainty and impact around leave/remain outcomes when it comes to the day dob.

Doesn't nullify the point that one of London's big selling points for all banks is as a passport to Europe. There is no way around it that high pay, high tax jobs will move out of the City if we Brexit.

 

[El Presidente]

We can do global trade deals that the EU commission itself believes could generate another 300,000 jobs.

Could you show me where this is sourced from JC?

 

[El Presidente]

http://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/brexit-remain-vote-critical-warns-uk-car-industry

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/06/19/premier-leagues-richard-scudamore-to-back-remain-campaign-ahead/


All clubs in the Premier League, and the UK car industry, are for a remain vote.

 

[Moshe Gariani]

View attachment 75889

The Bookies odds are tipping more to staying now

This doesn't give a lot of comfort. Recent history is not good about things I really want to happen going odds on at the bookies ...

 

[drew]

Is he as well informed as EU Justice Commissioner, Viviane Reding, Vice President of the European Commission (2010 - 2014)?

https://vimeo.com/86013794

Very possibly he is. She was a former journalist with a doctorate in human science and subsequently was head of journalist's union and now a career politician. He has studied and published on various aspects of EU Law. If you want to know how a car works, would you ask the guy in the shiny suit trying to sell it to you or would you ask a mechanic?

 

[El Presidente]

Is he as well informed as EU Justice Commissioner, Viviane Reding, Vice President of the European Commission (2010 - 2014)?

[]

I work with him, he is incredibly well informed and dedicated to his research. Would take his word over a career bureaucrat or politician every time on this topic.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Could you show me where this is sourced from JC?

It looks like the figure is based on our newly regained ability to strike trade deals with some of the largest or fastest growing economies in the world.

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/vote_leave_to_create_300_000_british_jobs

 

[El Presidente]

It looks like the figure is based on our newly regained ability to strike trade deals with some of the largest or fastest growing economies in the world.

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/vote_leave_to_create_300_000_british_jobs

That's laughable in terms of credibility. The leave campaign have simply extrapolated figures and ignored that the UK as an economy is 77% service based. Trade deals are usually for goods, not services.

The reason why it has taken so long to strike a deal with the US and other countries is that the negotiations are complex. There is also the issue that should Trump get in, he is a protectionist, so there is no logical reason why he would accelerate a trade deal with the UK ahead of the much larger market in the form of the EU.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Very possibly he is. She was a former journalist with a doctorate in human science and subsequently was head of journalist's union and now a career politician. He has studied and published on various aspects of EU Law. If you want to know how a car works, would you ask the guy in the shiny suit trying to sell it to you or would you ask a mechanic?

A quick visit to her wiki page and the former Vice President of the Commission opinions/views are conveniently ignored ... nice.

 

[looney]

Have you got a link to the supposed accelerate membership of Turkey or are you merely confusing this with visa free travel in the Schengen Area?

How many would you like seeing its been headline news?

https://www.google.co.uk/#q=accelerated+eu+membership+turkey

 

[looney]

What does provisions for an EU army mean? Regarding Turkey, you may have noticed we're trying to stem the flow of refugees. That necessitates spending some money, it puts them no closer to EU membership. It's not happening. The PM can't say that Turkish membership will be straight-up vetoed because that's not how you conduct international politics.

sigh
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=provision+definition

https://www.google.co.uk/#q=accelerated+eu+membership+turkey