[Politics] Brexit

[pastafarian]

It's looking like Jo Cox has saved Remain.

do yourself a favour chap,leave this sort of gutter ballocks somewhere else.
we are trying to have a debate of sorts,the insults are flying i agree but nothing too below the belt for NSC open debate

your comment is all sorts of wrong though.

 

[beorhthelm]

Yes and one of the big reasons deals are done in London is about to be ripped away.

and whats that then? if its passporting services, your argument fails because if you wanted passport into EU you'd setup in Ireland or Luxembourg for the lower taxes - as some companies do aready. and why do the likes of Deutsche Bank, BNP Paribas, ABN AMRO have such large UK operations when already in the EU? so please let us know what big reason is likely to be at risk if we were to leave.

 

[5ways]

and whats that then? if its passporting services, your argument fails because if you wanted passport into EU you'd setup in Ireland or Luxembourg for the lower taxes - as some companies do aready. and why do the likes of Deutsche Bank, BNP Paribas, ABN AMRO have such large UK operations when already in the EU? so please let us know what big reason is likely to be at risk if we were to leave.

London offers everything currently. Yes these companies are in the UK because it has access to the European market. It is worth noting that Euro clearing only happens here because we are inside the EU. Why is Credit Suisse in London? Because Switzerland outside the EU cannot operate in the EU market so it has to set up abroad. Naturally you come to London because it gives you the mix of timezone, lifestyle, concentration and market access. If we lose market access to the world's biggest and best market we lose one of the pillars that makes London one of the world's premier financial centres. Why do DB, BNP, ABN have large UK operations? Because we can offer everything they need. Remove essential and vital market access and you've lost a major selling point. It will cost jobs, it will reduce tax revenue.

 

[5ways]

"Xavier Rolet, chief executive of the London Stock Exchange, has said that as many as 100,000 City jobs could be lost if Britain left the EU in a private meeting with David Cameron, linked to moving the clearing of euro-denominated securities out of London."

https://next.ft.com/content/868345d8-1607-11e6-b197-a4af20d5575e

 

[pastafarian]

Does this continued compassion also mean higher immigration rates under a Australian style points system?

Under a points style system (an extension of the system that already exists) it means you control the system.
Is this really to hard to understand?

As i understand it the "Australian system" has allowed the Australians to control the amount of immigrants coming in and this has been higher recently than some years because they are actively recruiting some skills they are lacking amongst their young,but controlling this influx none the less.
If you control this system you can manage it,you can plan ahead with your infrastructure,you can plan ahead with education,you can plan ahead with housing,you can plan ahead with things like apprenticeships in the skills you are lacking to get your own young out of the desperation of unemployment.
This Australians seem to have a good grip on this concept and it seems to be working for them.

We cannot control immigration or forward planning because we dont have full control of our borders.

Now answer me this,why are you against us fully controlling our borders?We have legal control over Non EU nationals,you have no problem with this so why be against the same controls with eu nations....why not teat everyone equal?

 

[5ways]

Under a points style system (an extension of the system that already exists) it means you control the system.
Is this really to hard to understand?

As i understand it the "Australian system" has allowed the Australians to control the amount of immigrants coming in and this has been higher recently than some years because they are actively recruiting some skills they are lacking amongst their young,but controlling this influx none the less.
If you control this system you can manage it,you can plan ahead with your infrastructure,you can plan ahead with education,you can plan ahead with housing,you can plan ahead with things like apprenticeships in the skills you are lacking to get your own young out of the desperation of unemployment.
This Australians seem to have a good grip on this concept and it seems to be working for them.

We cannot control immigration or forward planning because we dont have full control of our borders.

Now answer me this,why are you against us fully controlling our borders?We have legal control over Non EU nationals,you have no problem with this so why be against the same controls with eu nations....why not teat everyone equal?

Free movement is part of the deal for access to the single market. Add to this is that I don't believe migration is a bad thing for the country from a macro perspective. Individuals might have different experiences. But because they pay more in than they take out, look after us, and do not have an adverse effect on jobs or wages I don't have a problem with it.

Please also note than although 3m Europeans live here 2 million Brits live in Europe.

 

[jaghebby]

nice pie chart
what values do you place on sovereignty?
what values do you place on democracy?
what values do you place on security?
what values do you place on judicial supremacy?
What values do you place on overstretched housing and a bursting NHS?
what values do you place on the right to control our own borders?
what values do you place on quality of life?
Do you recognise any values except those that appear on a pie chart?

you seem to have omitted these figures

what values do you place on sovereignty? We still have a parliament who make the majority of the laws of this United Kingdom. We vote for that government whether you like it or not . We have our own currency, set our own interest rates and taxes. We are not part of the EURO! We have our own armed forces and as a sovereign nation we can also go to war without recourse to the EU so I think we are pretty much a sovereign nation.

what values do you place on democracy? We democratically elect the government who make the majority of the laws of this great land. The EU is democratic and is made up of 28 Sovereign states. They guide the EU and make the decisions we as a sovereign nation participate in those decisions. Most of the important decisions we will have a veto on and for your information where there has been majority voting we have been out voted only on 2% of those occaisions!

what values do you place on security? We are proud to part of NATO (nothing to do with the EU) we cooperate and share information with our EU partners this helps protect our security. I seem to recall the last time there were terror attacks they were home grown and nothing to do with the EU.

what values do you place on judicial supremacy? The European Court of Justice (ECJ) is the highest court of the European Union in matters of Union law, but not national law. It is not possible to appeal the decisions of national courts to the ECJ, but rather national courts refer questions of EU law to the ECJ. So where is the problem?

What values do you place on overstretched housing and a bursting NHS? We could build more houses if the government chose to remember only about 10.6% of England is classified as urban land e.g . built on! We fail to meet building targets because of planning issues, nimbyism, local authorities not identifying enough land to build on as part of their local plans, lack of skilled workers and lack of building materials due in part to the boom economy
etc. The NHS is "bursting" because we spend less as a % of our GDP and are at the lower end of the scale than other OECD countries spend as a % of their GDP’s do! Therefore the reason it is “bursting” is that we as a sovereign nation have decided not to spend enough rather than the number of migrants. We also have an ageing population and are living longer and that is a major factor for the NHS being under huge pressure.

what values do you place on the right to control our own borders? We already do control our borders as we are not part of Schengen free travel area!

what values do you place on quality of life? By being part of Europe we are economically doing rather well. Since being in the single market our GDP has grown by 62% considerably more than France 42% and Germany 35%. Our own Office of National Statistics shows that we have grown by 69% under the single Market similar to the USA over that period 71% and well above Japan at 19%. Prosperity is an important factor in the quality of life! We are also at record levels of employment for British born nationals at a tad under 75% in the age range 16-64.

Do you recognise any values except those that appear on a pie chart? I recognise those values but you appear do not. Before you spout the empty nationalistic leavers rhetoric take a long hard look at the facts – that’s why the only sensible choice is vote remain.

 

[pastafarian]

Free movement is part of the deal for access to the single market. Add to this is that I don't believe migration is a bad thing for the country from a macro perspective. Individuals might have different experiences. But because they pay more in than they take out, look after us, and do not have an adverse effect on jobs or wages I don't have a problem with it.

Please also note than although 3m Europeans live here 2 million Brits live in Europe.

All the exiters on here know your viewpoints,you have no problems with mass immigration.
thats fair enough......its what you want and its what you will get if we stay in

you are pleased with the 300,000 per year at the moment,but what figure would it take for you to say thats enough

400,000 per year
500,000 per year
750,000 per year
1000000 per year

do you actually have a limit?

 

[5ways]

All the exiters on here know your viewpoints,you have no problems with mass immigration.
thats fair enough......its what you want and its what you will get if we stay in

you are pleased with the 300,000 per year at the moment,but what figure would it take for you to say thats enough

400,000 per year
500,000 per year
750,000 per year
1000000 per year

do you actually have a limit?

Yes but I don't know what that number would be. I think we are in a unique situation where because the UK economy is doing well the numbers rise disproportionately compared with other EU countries. As they recover inward migration will fall. Similarly many will leave when work dries up in the UK. A lot of these migrants are temporary and do not put down roots. This helps us have a buoyant labour market.

There should be measures to control inward migration under certain circumstances but I'm not sure what form they will take.

Moreover if we were really serious about cutting migration efforts could be made to reduce non-EU migration (without damaging our massive university sector) - which runs higher than EU migration. .

 

[pastafarian]

what values do you place on the right to control our own borders? We already do control our borders as we are not part of Schengen free travel area!

your whole post was a joke,but this is a corker.
Can we place restrictions on french,german,romanian,dutch or czech nationals entering the country tomorrow if WE DECIDED to?
According to you we can,as we control our borders

makes you wonder why everyone is arguing about controlling our borders when all anyone has to do is tell our border guards they can stop any EU national coming in and dont need a reason after all

 

[jaghebby]

All the exiters on here know your viewpoints,you have no problems with mass immigration.
thats fair enough......its what you want and its what you will get if we stay in

you are pleased with the 300,000 per year at the moment,but what figure would it take for you to say thats enough

400,000 per year
500,000 per year
750,000 per year
1000000 per year

do you actually have a limit?

Here's a thing the latest 330,000 net migration figures include, as an estimated by the ONS, 167,000 of people who come here to study e.g at our universities. They mostly go home when these studies are completed so the net migration figure really was 163,000. I do wish the leavers would get their facts right.

I should also point out that the number of British born people and British nationals is at an all time high. Now given that our improving economy is generating lots of new jobs we need people to fill those jobs. So could there be an increase in UK born or UK nationals in employment? maybe a little but not much given that a significant proportion of the 16-64 age group is in full time education and not working, or looking after children and other family members, or unable to work for other reasons the current UK employment rate is probably quite close to its maximum! So who is going to fill those jobs I ask again - migrants of course! Migration is hugely important in to the economic well being of our great country. The leavers would have us believe an Australian style system would help control migration. But Migration Watch criticises it for it's extreme complexity and for the fact that it is a system designed to encourage immigration. Australia's net migration per capita is roughly three times that of the UK. It is it says, "thoroughly unsuitable" for Britain.

Vote remain you know it makes sense!

 

[pastafarian]

Yes but I don't know what that number would be. I think we are in a unique situation where because the UK economy is doing well the numbers rise disproportionately compared with other EU countries. As they recover inward migration will fall. Similarly many will leave when work dries up in the UK. A lot of these migrants are temporary and do not put down roots. This helps us have a buoyant labour market.

There should be measures to control inward migration under certain circumstances but I'm not sure what form they will take.

Moreover if we were really serious about cutting migration efforts could be made to reduce non-EU migration (without damaging our massive university sector) - which runs higher than EU migration. .

you believe there is a limit where immigration becomes unsustainable but dont know what it is yet.
at that point where it crosses your threshold you would say enough is enough and inward migration should be controlled.

and yet you want to remain in a club that wont let you control any of this.
You are simply a bunch of hypocrites whose threshold for immigration happens to be higher than brexiters.....your idealistic arguments for free movement suddenly disappear when you lot put a figure on mass immigration

 

[pastafarian]

Here's a thing the latest 330,000 net migration figures include, as an estimated by the ONS, 167,000 of people who come here to study e.g at our universities. They mostly go home when these studies are completed so the net migration figure really was 163,000. I do wish the leavers would get their facts right.

I should also point out that the number of British born people and British nationals is at an all time high. Now given that our improving economy is generating lots of new jobs we need people to fill those jobs. So could there be an increase in UK born or UK nationals in employment? maybe a little but not much given that a significant proportion of the 16-64 age group is in full time education and not working, or looking after children and other family members, or unable to work for other reasons the current UK employment rate is probably quite close to its maximum! So who is going to fill those jobs I ask again - migrants of course! Migration is hugely important in to the economic well being of our great country. The leavers would have us believe an Australian style system would help control migration. But Migration Watch criticises it for it's extreme complexity and for the fact that it is a system designed to encourage immigration. Australia's net migration per capita is roughly three times that of the UK. It is it says, "thoroughly unsuitable" for Britain.

Vote remain you know it makes sense!

so whats your upper limit

400,000 per year
500,000 per year
750,000 per year
1000000 per year

 

[jaghebby]

No because currently that's a price for being part of the Single Market and don't forget 2million Brits have taken that fantastic opportunity to work and live in other EU countries. Like all leavers it comes down to an obsessive fear of immigration! Now that some EURO economies are beginning to recover that migration will plateau out and fall in time. I think your fear is that Britain will some how become diluted in some way or maybe our British way of life will be cease to exist - really? The French, Germans and Italians have been in the EU longer than us are they any less French, German or Italian. No they are not. Apart from the economic benefits of EU migration if some of our wonderful British values rub off on them then that is something to be celebrated!!!!

Vote remain you know it makes sense.

 

[jaghebby]

so whats your upper limit

400,000 per year
500,000 per year
750,000 per year
1000000 per year

If your not going to be sensible then really there is no point debating with you. The numbers will be determined by the economy, jobs created and job vacancies. People who believe that we can control it are living in cloud cuckoo land that's the reality that needs to be understood. Making and setting limits is like saying how long is a "piece of string" its totally unrealistic and impossible to define. What we do know is that migration is important and vital for the prosperity and continued growth of the economy and that benefits us all.

Vote remain you know it makes sense.

 

[jaghebby]

your whole post was a joke,but this is a corker.
Can we place restrictions on french,german,romanian,dutch or czech nationals entering the country tomorrow if WE DECIDED to?
According to you we can,as we control our borders

makes you wonder why everyone is arguing about controlling our borders when all anyone has to do is tell our border guards they can stop any EU national coming in and dont need a reason after all

Why do you say the whole post is a joke when these are all facts! Which ones are'nt true? Whoops I forgot, facts are something that seems to be alien to all Brexiteers, including you, especially when it comes to setting out the arguments for voting to leave.

Vote remain you know it makes sense!

 

[pastafarian]

If your not going to be sensible then really there is no point debating with you. The numbers will be determined by the economy, jobs created and job vacancies. People who believe that we can control it are living in cloud cuckoo land that's the reality that needs to be understood. Making and setting limits is like saying how long is a "piece of string" its totally unrealistic and impossible to define. What we do know is that migration is important and vital for the prosperity and continued growth of the economy and that benefits us all.

Vote remain you know it makes sense.

basically you have no limits at all on immigration levels ,the more the merrier,

 

[pastafarian]

Why do you say the whole post is a joke when these are all facts! Which ones are'nt true? Whoops I forgot, facts are something that seems to be alien to all Brexiteers, including you, especially when it comes to setting out the arguments for voting to leave.

Vote remain you know it makes sense!

Can we place restrictions on french,german,romanian,dutch or czech nationals entering the country tomorrow if WE DECIDED to?
According to you we can,as we control our borders

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Can we place restrictions on french,german,romanian,dutch or czech nationals entering the country tomorrow if WE DECIDED to?
According to you we can,as we control our borders

There is just no point in wasting your time and energy, people just don't want to see it. You can only hope that if we Remain, the EU situation gets so bad that they have no other choice but to reform which is highly unlikely.

For me a once in a lifetime opportunity is possibly going to be flushed down the toilet. I would never insult my fellow NSC posters who want to Remain, it is their call but personally I think they are making a big mistake, and have fallen in to the trap of listening to all the government spin.

Lots are voting over the personalities of people rather than the real issues which is wrong, and some parts of the media and government are deliberately painting unfair pictures of what Leaving would suppodesly look like to suit their own political agenda and scare people in to voting Remain.

 

[melias shoes]

There is just no point in wasting your time and energy, people just don't want to see it. You can only hope that if we Remain, the EU situation gets so bad that they have no other choice but to reform which is highly unlikely.

For me a once in a lifetime opportunity is possibly going to be flushed down the toilet. I would never insult my fellow NSC posters who want to Remain, it is their call but personally I think they are making a big mistake, and have fallen in to the trap of listening to all the government spin.

Lots are voting over the personalities of people rather than the real issues which is wrong, and some parts of the media and government are deliberately painting unfair pictures of what Leaving would suppodesly look like to suit their own political agenda and scare people in to voting Remain.

Which is what it's starting to look like.