[Politics] Brexit

[Gwylan]

So do [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] or [MENTION=33253]JC Footy Genius[/MENTION] (or others) have any suggestions as to what should have been done differently and how that would have effected the situation we find ourselves in ?

I've posted twice (at least) in this thread how things could, and should, have been handled differently. I don't think there's any need to repeat them ... again

 

[WATFORD zero]

Ah ..... the small businessman with an unbelievable knowledge of WTO is back. OK, so to do what you always do - I suggest you look at my previous posts to find out where I think things could have been handled differently. 23 days to the no deal you absolutely promise won't happen

Well, I remember from your previous posts you saying that we should give NI back to the Irish to resolve NI/Ireland border problem, but other than that, I can't remember you making any suggestions. Maybe you could remind me ?

Or maybe you think this complete clusterf*** was inevitable as well ?

*edit* And I haven't been in business for some years as you can probably tell from the amount of time I spend posting rubbish on here

 

[WATFORD zero]

I've posted twice (at least) in this thread how things could, and should, have been handled differently. I don't think there's any need to repeat them ... again

If remember rightly, you wanted a cross party group to negotiate and to stay in the customs union. I agree that would have had a very different outcome, but I'm not sure it would have the support of a significant number of leave voters ?

In fact, I think there would be a good chance of you being called an undemocratic loon by certain posters.

 

[Gwylan]

I remember, you wanted to stay in the customs union. I agree that would have had a very different outcome, but I'm not sure it would have the support of a significant number of leave voters ?

It wouldn't have to have that much support - just four percent of leave voters would have been a majority of voters (and I think it would have been more than that)

I also said that Labour should have been involved in the negotiations, it would have led to no parliamentary hold-ups. And Keir Starmer is far sharper than anyone from the Tory Brexit camp.

Finally, there should have been a delay in A50 so we'd still be about a year away from leaving - more time to finalise all tariffs and arrangements so businesses know exactly what's happening

 

[WATFORD zero]

It wouldn't have to have that much support - just four percent of leave voters would have been a majority of voters (and I think it would have been more than that)

I also said that Labour should have been involved in the negotiations, it would have led to no parliamentary hold-ups. And Keir Starmer is far sharper than anyone from the Tory Brexit camp.

Finally, there should have been a delay in A50 so we'd still be about a year away from leaving - more time to finalise all tariffs and arrangements so businesses know exactly what's happening

Most sensible approach from any leave voter that I have seen on NSC (and I think I said similar last time we discussed it). However, your 4 percent has assumed that all remainers would back this and I certainly wouldn't as I see no benefits for this over staying in the EU.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Most sensible approach from any leave voter that I have seen on NSC (and I think I said similar last time we discussed it). However, your 4 percent has assumed that all remainers would back this and I certainly wouldn't as I see no benefits for this over staying in the EU.

But that's just an admission that you aren't backing democracy.

If you accepted the result, [MENTION=25]Gwylan[/MENTION]'s suggestion was actually, as you said, pretty sound.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Well, I remember from your previous posts you saying that we should give NI back to the Irish to resolve NI/Ireland border problem, but other than that, I can't remember you making any suggestions. Maybe you could remind me ?

Or maybe you think this complete clusterf*** was inevitable as well ?

*edit* And I haven't been in business for some years as you can probably tell from the amount of time I spend posting rubbish on here

Yes, I believe a united Ireland is a good thing ( regardless of Brexit - it would also aid Brexit obviously ). Talks with the EU should have been harder ..... with a hard nosed negociator not the soft politicians we used. We should have told the EU what the timetable was .... not the other way round. And if they didn't like it then it would have been the two fingered salute. I assume you haven't watched the BBC programme on the last ten years of the EU to see how arrogant and flippant they are with democracy ? I have an admiration for Tusk and wish he was on our side ..... if only we'd have someone like him on our side then everything would have probably been different. As for the way forward ..... May's deal vs No Deal ..... bring on no deal.

 

[Stat Brother]

What should have happened is all politicians should have been excused from the process.
They should have been instantly removed in favour of a crack team of lawyers, business leaders, negotiators and strategists, who from opposing standpoints still had the capacity to work for the common goal.





Obviously if they could have been found in the LA underground, that would have been an added bonus.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

The biggest threat to Brexit not happening is your merry band in the ERG. They can still get "the owned by the EU" relationship they portrayed to the masses in June 2016, they just need to back May's deal

Utopia is in your grasp...

Not true, ( I won't call you a liar that would be childish) the biggest threat to Brexit has always been a Remain PM, a majority Remain cabinet, a majority remain MP government and an overwhelming Remain parliament overseeing our exit .. something many of them don't really want to do or believe in.

Even if all ERG members voted for the deal they wouldn't overcome a 230 majority plus the ERG and all Tory Mp's were elected on a mandate of specific red lines and no deal is better than a bad deal position. As a big majority in parliament considers the May deal a bad one unless changes are made it seems a tad undemocratic to expect them to vote for it as the only option to leave.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Yes, I believe a united Ireland is a good thing ( regardless of Brexit - it would also aid Brexit obviously )

Strange how The DUP and The UUP backed Brexit, but Sinn Fein,The SDLP and The Alliance backed remain in 2016 and Enda Kenny as Irish Taoiseach advised Irish citizens in The UK to vote remain, and it's only afterwards as the shambles has unfolded that Irish unification has become so obvious and a good thing to so many English Brexiteers.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

So with 23 days to go and still no end in sight for this complete and utter clusterf*** I'm guessing this wasn't what the leave voters intended

So do [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] or [MENTION=33253]JC Footy Genius[/MENTION] (or others) have any suggestions as to what should have been done differently and how that would have effected the situation we find ourselves in ?

1.) Have a government led by someone who campaigned to leave and actually believes leaving the EU is a good idea (A majority in cabinet also)

2.) Have an agreed position on our negotiating aims and goals and stick to it.

3.) Only trigger article 50 when we are ready.

4.) Make serious preparations from day one for a no deal scenario including allocating ££

5.) Don't call a General Election halfway through the process

Not saying we would have achieved everything we wanted or exited smoothly but we could hardly be in a worse position than we are now.

 

[nicko31]

Not true, ( I won't call you a liar that would be childish) the biggest threat to Brexit has always been a Remain PM, a majority Remain cabinet, a majority remain MP government and an overwhelming Remain parliament overseeing our exit .. something many of them don't really want to do or believe in.

Even if all ERG members voted for the deal they wouldn't overcome a 230 majority plus the ERG and all Tory Mp's were elected on a mandate of specific red lines and no deal is better than a bad deal position. As a big majority in parliament considers the May deal a bad one unless changes are made it seems a tad undemocratic to expect them to vote for it as the only option to leave.

Sorry pal, but not even you voted for no deal, its so far from the lies of 2016 it would be dereliction of duty by parliament to vote it through. We've never prepared for that, it was only discussed recently as some kind of misguided tactic to get what we want, we need 5 years + of planning for that kind of sh1t

If breaking Britain up and destroying industry is all that can be delivered, the population must ratify that. Yesterday, according to IDS its what a majority want. So put it to the test against remain

 

[A1X]

What should have happened is all politicians should have been excused from the process.
They should have been instantly removed in favour of a crack team of lawyers, business leaders, negotiators and strategists, who from opposing standpoints still had the capacity to work for the common goal.

I agree. And I would add that if politicians had to be involved this should have been done on the basis of cross-party consensus and not by one party at the expense of all others.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Strange how The DUP and The UUP backed Brexit, but Sinn Fein,The SDLP and The Alliance backed remain in 2016 and Enda Kenny as Irish Taoiseach advised Irish citizens in The UK to vote remain, and it's only afterwards as the shambles has unfolded it's Irish unification has become so obvious and a good thing to so many English Brexiteers.

And yet if you offered a referendum to NI and Eire on Irish unification I'd bet my mortgage on Sinn Fein supporting unification.

 

[ManOfSussex]

And yet if you offered a referendum to NI and Eire on Irish unification I'd bet my mortgage on Sinn Fein supporting unification.

Despite the violence and bloodshed that would ensue, you're right. It's why Fine Gael and Fine Fail in Dublin wont be pushing for one anymore than The DUP will.

Thats something The DUP and Sinn Fein will always have in common - a deep dislike of English people down south who know what's best for them.

 

[The Clamp]

But that's just an admission that you aren't backing democracy.

If you accepted the result, [MENTION=25]Gwylan[/MENTION]'s suggestion was actually, as you said, pretty sound.

The democratic thing to do would have been to observe the existing law and treat it as advisory. Not change the law to set it in stone at all costs. Democracy? pah! You don't know the meaning of the word.

 

[The Clamp]

1.) Have a government led by someone who campaigned to leave and actually believes leaving the EU is a good idea (A majority in cabinet also)

2.) Have an agreed position on our negotiating aims and goals and stick to it.

3.) Only trigger article 50 when we are ready.

4.) Make serious preparations from day one for a no deal scenario including allocating ££

5.) Don't call a General Election halfway through the process

Not saying we would have achieved everything we wanted or exited smoothly but we could hardly be in a worse position than we are now.

You voted for it. Good call.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Sorry pal, but not even you voted for no deal, its so far from the lies of 2016 it would be dereliction of duty by parliament to vote it through. We've never prepared for that, it was only discussed recently as some kind of misguided tactic to get what we want, we need 5 years + of planning for that kind of sh1t

If breaking Britain up and destroying industry is all that can be delivered, the population must ratify that. Yesterday, according to IDS its what a majority want. So put it to the test against remain

As I have been told many times on this thread the only question at the referendum was to leave or stay in the EU. How we leave including with or without a deal wasn't on the ballot paper ... no deal = leaving, pal.

 

[The Clamp]

As I have been told many times on this thread the only question at the referendum was to leave or stay in the EU. How we leave including with or without a deal wasn't on the ballot paper ... no deal = leaving, pal.

The idea that Brexit would end up in disaster, whoever the leader, whatever the scenario was obvious to anyone with half a brain. You perfectly illustrate my point that we were not nearly informed enough to vote but some of us at least knew that.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

The democratic thing to do would have been to observe the existing law and treat it as advisory. Not change the law to set it in stone at all costs. Democracy? pah! You don't know the meaning of the word.

The 'law' as you put it was superceded by PARLIAMENT voting to invoke Article 50. Now that is REAL democracy in action.