[Politics] Brexit

[Gwylan]

A good piece by Clare Foges in The Times of London today on how of all the accusations of betrayal that will come post Brexit, immigration not falling will be one.

I'm not sure why people thought immigration would fall. I distinctly recall Farage, during one of the TV debates, saying that EU workers could be replaced by workers from the Commonwealth, with more firmly established ties with the UK.

Besides, pretty much every person who voted for Brexit on NSC has said that it wasn't about immigration so no-one is going to aggrieved or feel 'betrayed' if non-EU immigration goes up

 

[Two Professors]

I'm not sure why people thought immigration would fall. I distinctly recall Farage, during one of the TV debates, saying that EU workers could be replaced by workers from the Commonwealth, with more firmly established ties with the UK.

Besides, pretty much every person who voted for Brexit on NSC has said that it wasn't about immigration so no-one is going to aggrieved or feel 'betrayed' if non-EU immigration goes up

At least most Commonwealth immigrants will speak fluent English and understand our culture.Most have given up hating our guts,too.

 

[CHAPPERS]

[tweet]1102561759393652738[/tweet]

 

[Gwylan]

At least most Commonwealth immigrants will speak fluent English and understand our culture.Most have given up hating our guts,too.

Well, they'll understand cricket and that's the important thing

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Good to see the Magic Money Tree is alive and well and still being used for Tory bungs

[tweet]1102346079742410752[/tweet]

 

[ManOfSussex]

I'm not sure why people thought immigration would fall. I distinctly recall Farage, during one of the TV debates, saying that EU workers could be replaced by workers from the Commonwealth, with more firmly established ties with the UK.

Besides, pretty much every person who voted for Brexit on NSC has said that it wasn't about immigration so no-one is going to aggrieved or feel 'betrayed' if non-EU immigration goes up

Never mind the 76 million Turks, there's nearly 200 million people in a Commonwealth country with established ties to The UK in the shape of Pakistan for example, so it's just as well they wont. Those who are already here of Pakistani heritage have all integrated really well and are really popular in the harmonious, multi cultural leave voting areas they reside in, such as Burnley, Oldham, Rochdale, Rotherham and Luton.

Later in her article, Ms Foges begs to differ on this though:

So not only does it seem likely that net migration numbers will remain extremely high, it looks as though a higher proportion will come from outside the EU than inside it. This matters for two reasons.

First, financial. Go beyond the stereotypes of feckless Romanians and you find that migrants from the European Economic Area are far more likely to make a net contribution to the UK’s coffers than those from outside it. Last year a report by the Migration Advisory Committee, which advises the government, contained some surprising figures.

The average adult migrant from EU countries contributed about £2,300 more to the UK public finances than the average British adult. The average non-EU migrant contributed about £840 less than the average Briton. This difference is partly explained by the fact that many non-EU citizens bring family dependents with them who do no work. In 2016 nearly a quarter of those who migrated from outside the EU (53,000 people) came to join members of their family.

The second reason is cultural. As uncomfortable as it may be to say, those from outside the EU are more likely to come from countries whose way of life and beliefs differ from British culture in a problematic way; whose attitudes to women, sexuality and secular freedoms jar with our own. Across swathes of Asia, the Middle East and Africa there prevail attitudes that we rightly condemn as backward and misogynistic. Partly as a consequence of this conflict, some who have migrated to the UK from outside the EU have formed communities that turn their backs on mainstream British culture, preferring isolation to integration.

I would suggest that it is for these reasons, rather than bigotry, that the British public show a preference for EU migration over that from outside Europe. In 2017 the London School of Economics conducted a survey of British residents, asking respondents to indicate their preferred level of net immigration from each group, on a sliding scale from zero to 165,000 a year. Middle-class people, the young and Remainers preferred more net immigration overall than the working class, older people and Leavers, but across social classes and ages, across both sides of the referendum divide, all groups indicated that they would prefer more immigrants from the EU than from outside it.

This is not to say that we should close the door on talent beyond Europe’s borders: far from it. Britain needs the skills, energy, kindness and wisdom of people from across the world. But any government purporting to care about “the will of the people” must take the clear views of those people into account. If these views are ignored, and if the overall numbers do not fall, then in this case the word “betrayal” will be well deserved.

 

[Gwylan]

"I would suggest that it is for these reasons, rather than bigotry, that the British public show a preference for EU migration over that from outside Europe."

But that's manifestly not true - and rather negates her argument. We had a referendum and voted explicitly to restrict EU migration but take no steps to reduce non-EU migration

 

[ManOfSussex]

But that's manifestly not true - and rather negates her argument. We had a referendum and voted explicitly to restrict EU migration but take no steps to reduce non-EU migration

She's basing that statement on preference from the findings of the LSE report she mentions.

We also had a referendum that explicitly stated there'd be an Australian style points system and that Turkey and 76 million Turks would be joining The EU as a reason to leave, on top of a Government in power since 2010 with a consistent pledge to reduce net migration to the tens of thousands which has never come close to being met.

 

[Gwylan]

We also had a referendum that explicitly stated that Turkey and 76 million Turks would be joining

That's not true at all. It was a possibility suggested by a couple of Brexiteers but it was then pointed out that it was not possible for Turkey to join as a) they were no longer interested in joining b) even if they were, they were nowhere near meeting conditions for entry and c) even if they were, their entry would be vetoed. That's not explicit at all

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I'm not sure why people thought immigration would fall. I distinctly recall Farage, during one of the TV debates, saying that EU workers could be replaced by workers from the Commonwealth, with more firmly established ties with the UK.

Besides, pretty much every person who voted for Brexit on NSC has said that it wasn't about immigration so no-one is going to aggrieved or feel 'betrayed' if non-EU immigration goes up

Not like this 'Ammers fan

[tweet]1102309572277166081[/tweet]

 

[JC Footy Genius]

But that's manifestly not true - and rather negates her argument. We had a referendum and voted explicitly to restrict EU migration but take no steps to reduce non-EU migration

Indeed and if a person voted to restrict EU migration they would know their vote has already had an effect and we haven't even left yet ....

Net migration to UK from EU falls to lowest level in 10 years

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-eu-countries-reach-highest-level-in-15-years

 

[ManOfSussex]

That's not true at all. It was a possibility suggested by a couple of Brexiteers but it was then pointed out that it was not possible for Turkey to join as a) they were no longer interested in joining b) even if they were, they were nowhere near meeting conditions for entry and c) even if they were, their entry would be vetoed. That's not explicit at all

It was quite explicit.

'Turkey is one of five new countries joining the EU' along with it's population of 76 million is still clearly stated in the Official Vote Leave manifesto for example - http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html

 

[Triggaaar]

Not like this 'Ammers fan

[tweet]1102309572277166081[/tweet]

Is he after Diane Abbott's job?

 

[Lincoln Imp]

That's not true at all. It was a possibility suggested by a couple of Brexiteers but it was then pointed out that it was not possible for Turkey to join as a) they were no longer interested in joining b) even if they were, they were nowhere near meeting conditions for entry and c) even if they were, their entry would be vetoed. That's not explicit at all

If the views of Brexiteers on here were replicated elsewhere there would have been a tumult of 'Turkey set to join' chitchat before the referendum. You can see why. The final Vote Leave flyer on our doormat during w/e June 24 clearly stated "Turkey will join the EU and the borders of the EU will be on Syria and Iraq' and it was certainly not the only time this was mentioned. Penny Mordant, since promoted to the cabinet, categorically stated that we would have no veto over Turkey joining. With respect, it is quite misleading to say that just a couple of Brexiteers happened to mention it.

(One of the canny aspects of the highly professional Leave campaign was to use specific claims to plant a wider sense of fear or hope in the minds of voters. It's an old, old trick. The classic example was the immortal £350m NHS claim. That headline wasn't really just about the NHS - it was a catchy way of making a bigger point with one small nugget of (mis)information. Turkey was another one. Farage could go on telly and waffle about rapists from distant lands and his great big posters should show their hordes of dusky-looking men but the lies about Turkey got the same broad message across, in a slightly less distasteful way.)

 

[Thunder Bolt]

That's not true at all. It was a possibility suggested by a couple of Brexiteers but it was then pointed out that it was not possible for Turkey to join as a) they were no longer interested in joining b) even if they were, they were nowhere near meeting conditions for entry and c) even if they were, their entry would be vetoed. That's not explicit at all

Farage
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-the-eu-over-the-refugee-crisis-a6921316.html


Johnson
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46926119



Vote Leave

 

[ManOfSussex]

Penny Mordant, since promoted to the cabinet, categorically stated that we would have no veto over Turkey joining.

Said on The Andrew Marr Show the same day as this front page 'exclusive.'

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It was a statement of fact that at the time of the referendum Turkey was on a pathway to join the EU and being funded with billions of Euros to make it happen.

It's also true that PM Cameron supported Turkey joining ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-po...uk-strongly-supports-turkey-eu-membership-bid

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/uk_pays_1_8_billion_to_help_albania_and_turkey_join_the_eu.html

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org...ict_cameron_turkey_will_join_in_a_decade.html

 

[ManOfSussex]

It was a statement of fact that at the time of the referendum Turkey was on a pathway to join the EU and being funded with billions of Euros to make it happen.

It's also true that PM Cameron supported Turkey joining ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-po...uk-strongly-supports-turkey-eu-membership-bid

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/uk_pays_1_8_billion_to_help_albania_and_turkey_join_the_eu.html

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org...ict_cameron_turkey_will_join_in_a_decade.html

A 'pathway' it had been stuck on since 1987 and unlike your link from the same week in 2010 that Eoin Morgan scored a Test match hundred against Pakistan with Man of The Match James Anderson taking 11 wickets in the same game, (alongside some from the Vote Leave campaign presumably put up for comedy value rather than an attempt at a substantive one) Cameron stated in 2016 it would happen in the 'Year 3000.'

 

[Bold Seagull]

Indeed and if a person voted to restrict EU migration they would know their vote has already had an effect and we haven't even left yet ....

Net migration to UK from EU falls to lowest level in 10 years

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-eu-countries-reach-highest-level-in-15-years

I'm sure they'll be delighted to see migration from outside the EU has increased to a 14 year high.

Of course much of it is that other parts of eastern europe are doing much better, so the decline was likely to happen with or without the vote.

 

[Rodney Thomas]

A 'pathway' it had been stuck on since 1987 and unlike your link from the same week in 2010 that Eoin Morgan scored a Test match hundred against Pakistan with Man of The Match James Anderson taking 11 wickets in the same game, (alongside some from the Vote Leave campaign presumably put up for comedy value rather than an attempt at a substantive one) Cameron stated in 2016 it would happen in the 'Year 3000.'

Not much will have changed then either, except we'll live underwater?