[Politics] Brexit

[hans kraay fan club]

There have been many comments on this thread that the EU hold all the cards and that they've offered us a bad deal because they can. Well if they've offered us a bad deal, and that's been rejected by parliament, and that then leads to consequences for the countries still in the EU, then yes the EU does need to take some of the responsibility.

I'm not at all suggesting our politicians aren't responsible for the mess, but the EU are also culpable.

Not this nonsense again.

The EU haven’t ‘offered us a bad deal’. They’ve simply stuck to their rules, and refused to offer up benefits of EU membership to a non-EU country

Failing to agree to ‘our’ unrealistic demands, is really, really not something that we can be surprised about, nor upset about.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I think that the EU have always recognised that if Britain decides to blow it's own economic brains out that being our nearest neighbours, they would get a horrendous dry cleaning bill.

Bet they'll be sorry when they get that bill, won't they. Love to be around to see their faces .............. Oh

Try to remove the EU blinkers ... it takes two sides two reach a deal and it would be a failure on both sides if we leave with no deal.

 

[Triggaaar]

Whether the deal is good, bad or indifferent, what has been negotiated is the deal which would protect the EU's basic principles

What has been negotiated is a deal which parliament won't pass. This can't have come as a surprise to the EU.

The EU haven’t ‘offered us a bad deal’. They’ve simply stuck to their rules, and refused to offer up benefits of EU membership to a non-EU country

Failing to agree to ‘our’ unrealistic demands, is really, really not something that we can be surprised about, nor upset about.

There wasn't simply the choice between what's been agreed and what our initial requests were. The EU are half of the negotiation, so it seems fair to hold both sides to account on what they can achieve.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Try to remove the EU blinkers ... it takes two sides two reach a deal and it would be a failure on both sides if we leave with no deal.

To cave in to our nonsense demands, and offer us benefits of membership, outside of the EU, would be a hugely damaging precedent for them. Never, ever, ever happening

 

[WATFORD zero]

Try to remove the EU blinkers ... it takes two sides two reach a deal and it would be a failure on both sides if we leave with no deal.

A deal has been reached

Maybe you should be looking at the undemocratic loons who voted against it and didn't follow the democratic will of the people

 

[ManOfSussex]

I'll think you'll find it's perfectly acceptable for many on here that the EU should try and assist Ireland in detaching NI from the rest of the UK ... all in the name of peace obviously.

You don't like the Good Friday Agreement.
You don't like the Withdrawal Agreement based on May's red lines.
You don't like the Backstop required to guarantee the Good Friday Agreement because of May's red lines.
You don't like Brexit having crowed about it for the last 2 years.



It's people like you talking it all down who are the problem, when you really should be getting behind Brexit, backing it and being, to paraphrase Andrea Leadsom, a bit more patriotic and banish your pessimism.

Stop moaning, accept it and get over it - you won.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

To cave in to our nonsense demands, and offer us benefits of membership, outside of the EU, would be a hugely damaging precedent for them. Never, ever, ever happening

The government and the EU have already agreed to a deal in numerous areas there are some parts of this that the HoC cannot accept. The HoC has signalled what needs to change (backstop) to get the deal done they are not as far as I am aware asking for benefits of being in the EU outside the EU.

 

[WATFORD zero]

What has been negotiated is a deal which parliament won't pass. This can't have come as a surprise to the EU.

So Britain and the EU negotiated (and agreed) a deal that everyone knew Britain wouldn't then pass ? And that's somehow the EU's fault ?

 

[clapham_gull]

The government and the EU have already agreed to a deal in numerous areas there are some parts of this that the HoC cannot accept. The HoC has signalled what needs to change (backstop) to get the deal done they are not as far as I am aware asking for benefits of being in the EU outside the EU.

But that's exactly what Labour are asking for. Not every single member of parliament is voting against the deal because of the backstop.

 

[ManOfSussex]

If it was wasn't for the Tories losing the election and having to bung the DUP to continue their attempt at an elected dictatorship, think they would have thrown NI under the £350m / week bus by now

They would have been sold down the river a long time back.

Adam Boulton in his Sunday Times piece at the weekend stuck to his guns and said, whatever happened this week and beyond, his money is still on the Withdrawal Agreement passing. May's buying Labour MP's now. Tories who shrug their shoulders once the EU offer up nothing more on the backstop and say 'Fair enough, she tried' and reluctantly vote for it, MP's faced with that or no deal, abstentions etc - He might just be proved right yet.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

A deal has been reached

Maybe you should be looking at the undemocratic loons who voted against it and didn't follow the democratic will of the people

A deal was reached that the HoC didn't find acceptable.

Yes you went a bit OTT when the deal was voted down but you didn't seem to realise that vote wouldn't kill it off (crystal ball broken?). A majority has now voted for the deal with the proviso the backstop is changed.

 

[WATFORD zero]

The government and the EU have already agreed to a deal in numerous areas there are some parts of this that the HoC cannot accept. The HoC has signalled what needs to change (backstop) to get the deal done they are not as far as I am aware asking for benefits of being in the EU outside the EU.

Without the backstop, Britain would have completely free, border less access to the whole of the EU via NI whilst not being in the EU and you can't see why they may have an issue with that ?

This is really basic stuff FFS

Now I know that you and [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] aren't stupid, so why do you keep on saying stupid things about Brexit ?

Is it desperation ?

 

[nicko31]

Without the backstop, Britain would have completely free, border less access to the whole of the EU via NI whilst not being in the EU and you can't see why they may have an issue with that ?

This is really basic stuff FFS

Think Theresa May explained it quite well 2 days before the referendum, she did it 24 seconds...

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obriens-brexit-explanation-gets-backing/

Listen 1 min 22 to 1 min 46

 

[JC Footy Genius]

You don't like the Good Friday Agreement.
You don't like the Withdrawal Agreement based on May's red lines.
You don't like the Backstop required to guarantee the Good Friday Agreement because of May's red lines.
You don't like Brexit having crowed about it for the last 2 years.



It's people like you talking it all down who are the problem, when you really should be getting behind Brexit, backing it and being, to paraphrase Andrea Leadsom, a bit more patriotic and banish your pessimism.

Stop moaning, accept it and get over it - you won.

I fully support the Good Friday Agreement ... show me the bit where it says this agreement is dependant on EU membership?
I don't like the withdrawal agreement because it diverges significantly from May's red lines.
I don't like the backstop for the previous reason
For crowing about Brexit for the last two years see countering the nonsense posts of undemocratic loons and the #teameu crew on here

 

[CHAPPERS]

Can anyone see schools having enough tome to make sure all student passports are in date for trips? I can't. No more school trips in to Europe. Oh and the teacher shortage is going to get worse. Big ****ing clap of the hands to all involved once more.

Schools are also told that hiring teachers from abroad will get more difficult because their qualifications may not be automatically recognised.

“In a no-deal scenario, the current system of reciprocal recognition of professional qualifications between the EU, EEA Efta and Switzerland and the UK will not apply after 29 March 2019,” the department states, although teachers who have already had their qualifications recognised in the UK will not be affected.

For school trips, the DfE notes that there are “a number of issues you will need to be aware of when planning travel to the EU for staff or students”, including passport duration.

 

[nicko31]

I fully support the Good Friday Agreement ... show me the bit where it says this agreement is dependant on EU membership?

EU Membership = Membership of the European Single market, the foundations of which the GFA was built upon.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I fully support the Good Friday Agreement ... show me the bit where it says this agreement is dependant on EU membership?
I don't like the withdrawal agreement because it diverges significantly from May's red lines.
I don't like the backstop for the previous reason
For crowing about Brexit for the last two years see countering the nonsense posts of undemocratic loons and the #teameu crew on here

Do you think The Good Friday Agreement was really possible in the first place without Maastricht? How does every other border in the world work outside a customs union, including The EU's other external borders? The Swedish/Norwegian border closes at night for example. How does that work on a 310 mile border with 270 odd crossing points? How will enforcing that go down with the border communities? Why did Varadkar show photos of dead HMRC and Revenue officers in the past to other EU leaders in regards to why a backstop was needed?

This should have been thought of a long time back. Brexit is a British created problem exacerbated by May's red lines.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Without the backstop, Britain would have completely free, border less access to the whole of the EU via NI whilst not being in the EU and you can't see why they may have an issue with that ?

This is really basic stuff FFS

Now I know that you and [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] aren't stupid, so why do you keep on saying stupid things about Brexit ?

Is it desperation ?

Hi. Ignore the Brexit twats for a moment, fellow remainer here. I still - still - can't really get my head round the backstop. Its just kicking the can down the road isn't it? Its just saying 'we can't work out how to have an open border (GFA) and a closed border (different customs arrangements, right to enter etc to the EU) at the same time. So if we have a 'backstop' its basically saying we're just delaying coming to a conclusion for 2 years.

But in two years - what? What is so miraculously going to happen that means we can have the dual open / closed border that is required?

Indeed can I throw this out to anyone (or at least anyone who doesn't use the words 'technological solution'). There is no answer is there?

So if we hard Brexit we will leave the border open, and the EU will leave the border open, and we'll argue forever about it, and because of that we won't get any benefits of the Withdrawal agreement, and they won't get their £39m

And if we leave with the Withdrawal agreement, we'll leave the border open, and they will leave the border open, for the short backstop period, but that will never end or change ever because no-one can come up with a solution.

With that in mind, it would seem completely foolish for our MP's to prevent the Withdrawal agreement on the basis of the backstop, because whether we have a backstop or don't have a backstop or don't have a deal, the actual result in terms of the border will be identical. No?

And therefore the ultimate question I suppose, will Brexit debates will go on FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE ?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Without the backstop, Britain would have completely free, border less access to the whole of the EU via NI whilst not being in the EU and you can't see why they may have an issue with that ?

This is really basic stuff FFS

Now I know that you and [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] aren't stupid, so why do you keep on saying stupid things about Brexit ?

Is it desperation ?

The HoC vote wasn't asking for 'completely free, borderless access to the whole of the EU via NI whilst not being in the EU' It was asking for alternative solutions which all conveniantly seem unachievable despite Barnier suggesting they would be found to avoid a border if a no deal occured.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Hi. Ignore the Brexit twats for a moment, fellow remainer here. I still - still - can't really get my head round the backstop. Its just kicking the can down the road isn't it? Its just saying 'we can't work out how to have an open border (GFA) and a closed border (different customs arrangements, right to enter etc to the EU) at the same time. So if we have a 'backstop' its basically saying we're just delaying coming to a conclusion for 2 years.

But in two years - what? What is so miraculously going to happen that means we can have the dual open / closed border that is required?

Indeed can I throw this out to anyone (or at least anyone who doesn't use the words 'technological solution'). There is no answer is there?

So if we hard Brexit we will leave the border open, and the EU will leave the border open, and we'll argue forever about it, and because of that we won't get any benefits of the Withdrawal agreement, and they won't get their £39m

And if we leave with the Withdrawal agreement, we'll leave the border open, and they will leave the border open, for the short backstop period, but that will never end or change ever because no-one can come up with a solution.

With that in mind, it would seem completely foolish for our MP's to prevent the Withdrawal agreement on the basis of the backstop, because whether we have a backstop or don't have a backstop or don't have a deal, the actual result in terms of the border will be identical. No?

And therefore the ultimate question I suppose, will Brexit debates will go on FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE ?

It's a fair summary.

You're right we are trying to kick the can down the road and say to the EU 'trust us to find something' in the next 21 months. Not surprisingly, the EU don't want to trust us, hence the backstop meaning NI will stay in the customs union if no solution is found.

One thing you missed - WTO won't let us trade without borders, so any 'no deal' scenario means a hard border as there has to be a means to collect WTO default tariffs. And not paying our trading bill may not be the best way to start trade negotiations under WTO with USA, Russia, China, Australia etc and the biggest trading bloc in the world, the EU.

All of this has all been known since before the referendum but unfortunately some people had their fingers in their ears shouting 'project fear' and couldn't hear (or maybe couldn't understand)