[Politics] Brexit

[ManOfSussex]

Yes, but that referendum was prior to the EU one. I wonder if that has changed now

I do agree, however, that it's unlikely that the backstop would be renegotiated

I recall the chief minister explaining to a select committee that the remain vote was more out of concerns that Spain would look to make capital from Brexit than anything else. They're also not in the customs union at present anyway.

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

58 days to go.




On our way .

A childish, ignorant and stupid leave voter.
I told you all so many times.

 

[dejavuatbtn]

What I don’t quite understand about the Irish border issue is who would be responsible for managing it? If we refused to set up anything, and the Irish refused to set up anything on behalf of the EU, what’s the problem, other than no customs control between the borders? Seems to me that the EU wants a border and is looking to blame the UK for it.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

But neither Tory or Labour has said it will not honour the vote. The whole controversy revolves not around that but around determining what sort of Brexit it was people voted for. Claims that it was definitely hard, soft or something in between are just whistling in the wind by people trying to promote their own definition.

For example, one leading politician says people definitely didn't vote to become poorer, another says they definitely voted to leave the customs union. They can't both be right. Or wrong.

It is entirely probable that most MPs on either side of the debate feel that they are fulfilling the obligation placed on them to act in the national interest. Their different interpretations of this are, I suggest, usually genuine - whether it is that we should away without a deal, or ask the people to reconsider before departure takes place.

I agree. I was referring to the posters comment that seemed to question the validity of the referendum itself.

 

[Bold Seagull]

What I don’t quite understand about the Irish border issue is who would be responsible for managing it? If we refused to set up anything, and the Irish refused to set up anything on behalf of the EU, what’s the problem, other than no customs control between the borders? Seems to me that the EU wants a border and is looking to blame the UK for it.

The problem is, that if we are on WTO rules in the event of No Deal exit, then a customs free situation between ROI and NI means that is what applies to the rest of the world! You cannot have a situation under WTO were you pick and choose your customs arrangements, each import duty under WTO would be the same. We would effectively be giving the world free access to our market for nothing return. Let's try making these magical trade deals around the world when they'd already have the best deal imaginable.

 

[Baker lite]

A childish, ignorant and stupid leave voter.
I told you all so many times.

You bore Me.



On our way


WTO ...let’s go

 

[CHAPPERS]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-political-class-politicians?CMP=share_btn_tw

Stressed out by Brexit? I have a mindfulness exercise for you, one guaranteed to bring calm. Instead of imagining a deep, cool lake or a beach of bone-white sand, comfort yourself by imagining the day, several years from now, when a Chilcot-style inquiry probes the epic policy disaster that was Brexit. As you take deep breaths, and with your eyes closed, picture the squirming testimony of an aged David Cameron under sustained interrogation. Look on as Boris Johnson is at last called to account for the serial fictions of the 2016 campaign. Or perhaps contemplate the moment the panel delivers its damning, final report, concluding that this was a collective, systemic failure of the entire British political class.
May thinks she’s won. But the reality of Brexit will soon hit her again

Last night’s series of votes in the Commons will provide a rich batch of evidence. Almost everyone involved, from both main parties, showed themselves to be immersed in delusion, trading fantasies and absurdities, each one refusing to meet reality’s eye, let alone tackle it head on.

Most culpable, once again, is the prime minister. If our jaws weren’t already slackened to numbness by the last 30 months, they should have hit the floor at this latest performance. Theresa May had repeated endlessly, and for weeks, that her deal was the only deal on offer. Yet there she was, standing at the despatch box urging MPs to vote for an amendment that trashes that very same deal. The Brady amendment, which passed by 16 votes, demands what May had constantly said, up until yesterday morning, was impossible: the replacement of the Northern Irish backstop with “alternative arrangements”. It’s an extraordinary thing, this ability of May’s: she somehow manages to combine grinding intransigence with a willingness to perform the most brazen U-turns.

Cheering her on was a Conservative party celebrating the rare thrill of unity. For the first time in ages, they could all be on the same side, declaring with one voice that what they really wanted was May’s deal minus the backstop. They beamed as if this result meant something, when it is in fact triply meaningless.

First, it’s really no great achievement to get MPs to agree that they’d like the good bits of a deal but don’t want to swallow the bad bits: yes to the sugar, no to the pill. The Tories have united around a position that says they’d like the benefits of the withdrawal agreement, without paying all the costs.

It’s the familiar Brexit delusion, which Brussels took all of six minutes to crush, by declaring – for the millionth time – that “the withdrawal agreement is not open for renegotiation.” In other words, what the Daily Mail calls “Theresa’s triumph” is to have got her party to unite behind a stance that is doomed to fail.

 

[Triggaaar]

I mentioned this earlier. If (and it's a big if) the backstop is renegotiated, we'd clearly have to the give some concession to the EU. Personally, I think Gibraltar would be an easy one; in the referendum, 97% wanted to stay in the EU so ceding the place to Spain would be in line with the citizens' wishes.

But the people of Gibraltor don't want to be under Spanish rule. It obviously made sense to them for us all to remain in the EU, but that's completely different to giving them to Spain, which isn't what they want. When they voted on it (twice), they voted 99% to remain with the UK. Don't you think what they want matters?

 

[CHAPPERS]

But the people of Gibraltor don't want to be under Spanish rule. It obviously made sense to them for us all to remain in the EU, but that's completely different to giving them to Spain, which isn't what they want. When they voted on it (twice), they voted 99% to remain with the UK. Don't you think what they want matters?

Another example of why this ****ing exercise is unworkable.

Way too much in play.

 

[Bold Seagull]

But the people of Gibraltor don't want to be under Spanish rule. It obviously made sense to them for us all to remain in the EU, but that's completely different to giving them to Spain, which isn't what they want. When they voted on it (twice), they voted 99% to remain with the UK. Don't you think what they want matters?

Post Brexit, especially no deal that opinion could be very different.

 

[Triggaaar]

Post Brexit, especially no deal that opinion could be very different.

But it's extremely unlikely we'll leave without a deal, and even if we did, a new deal would be made soon afterwards. In the meantime, the people of Gibraltor don't want to be part of Spain, so why make them?

 

[Bold Seagull]

But it's extremely unlikely we'll leave without a deal, and even if we did, a new deal would be made soon afterwards. In the meantime, the people of Gibraltor don't want to be part of Spain, so why make them?

I wouldn't make them, I just said that post Brexit, deal, or no deal, their relationship with Spain and the EU is going to be very different, their economy with it. Could dramatically change how they see their future governance.

 

[Two Professors]

58 days to go.




On our way .

That's very good.I will borrow that,if I may,to wind up some more idiots.Cheers

 

[Triggaaar]

I wouldn't make them

But that's what this discussion is about. Gwylan suggested ceding Gibraltor to Spain now, as part of Brexit.

I just said that post Brexit, deal, or no deal, their relationship with Spain and the EU is going to be very different, their economy with it. Could dramatically change how they see their future governance.

Sure, and they're free to vote again once Brexit is settled, but that's not what we're discussing now.

 

[Bold Seagull]

But that's what this discussion is about. Gwylan suggested ceding Gibraltor to Spain now, as part of Brexit.
Sure, and they're free to vote again once Brexit is settled, but that's not what we're discussing now.

Oh, okay then. Carry on.

 

[A1X]

But the people of Gibraltor don't want to be under Spanish rule. It obviously made sense to them for us all to remain in the EU, but that's completely different to giving them to Spain, which isn't what they want. When they voted on it (twice), they voted 99% to remain with the UK. Don't you think what they want matters?

Given the UK Government and the No Dealers seem quite prepared to rip up the Good Friday Agreement, passed with massive majorities on both sides of the Irish border in referendums, I don't think they really care about previous ones. Apparently all referendums can be challenged except the one which gave them the result they wanted.

 

[Gwylan]

But that's what this discussion is about. Gwylan suggested ceding Gibraltor to Spain now, as part of Brexit.
Sure, and they're free to vote again once Brexit is settled, but that's not what we're discussing now.

I'm not suggesting that at all. I said that option might be the most palatable to the UK government in the renegotiation of the withdrawal agreement.

Like I said, I don't think there can be a renegotiation but, if there were, the UK would have to give ground on something. There have been two suggestions emerging from Europe: Gibraltar and fishing rights. If the government had to give ground on one of them, I suggested that Gibraltar would be more likely.

Personally, no, I don't think we should ignore the Gibraltarian view but the government could well see differently,

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Yeah because they ALWAYS carry out their manifesto promises. Lol.

Well they usually do regarding a once in a lifetime event. But I'm not surprised at your stance. Many other people who voted remain also have low regard for democracy.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

What a load of bollocks! You think letting the people decide on the final outcome is having a low regard for democracy!? LOL!

We had a vote. The vote was cast. A result was made.

That is democratic.

If we have another vote, there would be a continuance of many of the arguments already common to the debate now. It would not settle anything.

It would also set a dangerous precedent, whereby a party is elected, becomes unpopular, and the threat from the public would be 'but we didn't know what we were voting for'.

Like it or not, we voted to leave the EU, not on the conditions of leaving, and that has fallen upon the government. I am in agreement though that they have made a right cockup.

 

[A1X]

Well they usually do regarding a once in a lifetime event. But I'm not surprised at your stance. Many other people who voted remain also have low regard for democracy.

Funny, I'm not seeing Remainers being the ones who claim democracy ended in June 2016 and we must never be allowed another vote on the matter again?