[Politics] Brexit

[pastafarian]

I guess by your long winded reply you still have not stated the reason a second referendum in the first instance "might make more sense"

I have, you just dont realise it.
You do realise the second referendum he is referring to in the circumstance he is talking about is still the first referendum to offer a binary IN/OUT choice of Remaining in a renegotiated membership EU or Leaving, a decision he has always maintained should be final and the initial first referendum we actually had after Camerons renegotiation?
As you believe he is logically therefore saying we can have another referendum after a binary IN/OUT referendum that provides a decision to Leave or Remain in a renegotiated EU (that he considers would be a final decision anyway) then provide a video or text of him saying that.

 

[beorhthelm]

No, I'm stating the facts that we have an opt-out if the EU decides to go more federal. What is your problem?

We're fed bullshit that we're powerless to withstand the EU superstate when in fact Europe recognises the key thing is trade and other factors are optional.

all opt outs are a treaty away from being rescinded, and why wouldnt we want to get away from Schengen, join the Euro, and fully align on all areas of EU regulation?

 

[Baldseagull]

I have, you just dont realise it.
You do realise the second referendum he is referring to in the circumstance he is talking about is still the first referendum to offer a binary IN/OUT choice of Remaining in a renegotiated membership EU or Leaving, a decision he has always maintained should be final and the initial first referendum we actually had after Camerons renegotiation?
As you believe he is logically therefore saying we can have another referendum after a binary IN/OUT referendum that provides a decision to Leave or Remain in a renegotiated EU (that he considers would be a final decision anyway) then provide a video or text of him saying that.

You are very good at saying at length what he is saying in regard to what, and what it was not in regard to, I have got that thanks.
What I am asking you for is his working out as to why it might be a good idea in the first instance, you know what I am asking for, and I know why you are not responding to that point.

It will try to rephrase it, just in case you really are misunderstanding me. Why might it make more sense to have a second referendum after a re-negotiation of our membership on the terms agreed?

 

[Baldseagull]

all opt outs are a treaty away from being rescinded, and why wouldnt we want to get away from Schengen, join the Euro, and fully align on all areas of EU regulation?

I might have mentioned this before, no UK government could sign a new treaty or amend an existing one without a UK referendum to ratify it, it was put into law in 2011 and is currently under a repeal by the withdrawal act 2018, but if the 2018 act is repealed and we remain in the EU, the 2011 act will come back into force. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/12/contents

 

[Pavilionaire]

Airbus and Ford today both lamenting the prospect of No Deal. Hundreds of thousands are going to lose their jobs if we crash out with No Deal in 9 week's time.

 

[Baldseagull]

Yeah you're right, I'll just pop of back to my cabin and go back to sleep. Hope I don't wake up and find the breaks have become qualified majority voting or anything.

If there was a move to qualified majority voting in this area, the UK can veto that move, we can veto the move to remove our veto. Secondly, if the UK Government did not veto that move, and none of the other members did either, it would have to come to us in a UK referendum, by UK law, to be ratified, and the same would apply in many of the other member states.
The thing is mate, I know you understand this, but there is a mistrust of the EU in you that just won't allow you to believe that they won't be able to force it on us somehow. I think this is because of how it has gone in the past, UK governments have signed up to things without our express consent. But what happened prior to 2011, cannot happen again without our consent, and even in that unlikely event, other nations would also be holding referendums which would all need to be positive.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

This train does not run out of track for another thousand miles, and we have full control of the brakes, relax.

Well actually we only have full control of the brakes on Thursdays as Thursday is treaty day. The other days we are allowed to tap the breaks but never to actually bring the train to a halt as these days are regulation days.

Let's hope the track only ever runs out on a Thursday !

 

[beorhthelm]

I might have mentioned this before, no UK government could sign a new treaty or amend an existing one without a UK referendum to ratify it, it was put into law in 2011 and is currently under a repeal by the withdrawal act 2018, but if the 2018 act is repealed and we remain in the EU, the 2011 act will come back into force. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/12/contents

yes, it may need ratification, that doesnt mean it cant happen. and how about the question, why wouldnt we want to fully align?

 

[Bold Seagull]

all opt outs are a treaty away from being rescinded, and why wouldnt we want to get away from Schengen, join the Euro, and fully align on all areas of EU regulation?

Because over half the country don’t even want to be in the EU. If in the unlikely event we do stay, it’s pretty clear it would need to be as little as possible.

 

[cunning fergus]

Airbus and Ford today both lamenting the prospect of No Deal. Hundreds of thousands are going to lose their jobs if we crash out with No Deal in 9 week's time.

Back in 1999 the debate about the euro was in full swing, big business interests were lamenting that being out the euro would damage their business, many sage economists, media types and earnest politicians told us that joining was in our economic interests.

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/inspiration/join-euro-or-get-left-behind-unilever-boss-warns-cbi/

Like the Herbert from Airbus yesterday, big business waves around the sword of Damocles on workers jobs, and broadly speaking the pro EU constituency use these missives to support their arguments that being in the EU is vital. This is Groundhog Day on the euro debate.

This debate about joining the euro is merely dormant, not dead in the ground. You are pro EU, where do you stand on joining the euro and fully embracing the bloc you are so enthusiastic that we remain in.......or are you a soft remainer and want the U.K. to remain independent?

 

[WATFORD zero]

yes, it may need ratification, that doesnt mean it cant happen. and how about the question, why wouldnt we want to fully align?

I would have thought it was fairly obvious. International relations are very complex and we have spent the last 40 years negotiating ourselves into this position because it suits our national interests.

It would be really stupid to jump to another position that has been carefully designed over years to suit a completely different set of national interests - like Norway, Canada or Germany for instance, wouldn't it

 

[cunning fergus]

Because over half the country don’t even want to be in the EU. If in the unlikely event we do stay, it’s pretty clear it would need to be as little as possible.

That’s true in the country at large, what about Parliament and the ruling classes...........more specifically social classes AB?

Their views matter.

 

[Is it PotG?]

That’s true in the country at large, what about Parliament and the ruling classes...........more specifically social classes AB?

Their views matter.

There are many 'AB's wanting out also.

 

[nicko31]

Airbus and Ford today both lamenting the prospect of No Deal. Hundreds of thousands are going to lose their jobs if we crash out with No Deal in 9 week's time.

There were interviewing locals around the Airbus factory on Ch4 News.

One women immediately started going on about sending money to Brussels and even re-surfaced the old bendy banana tale.

Another old git admitted his son worked at Airbus but said he would vote again regardless. Dunno if I could do that to my own kids and look them in the eye....

 

[cunning fergus]

Airbus and Ford today both lamenting the prospect of No Deal. Hundreds of thousands are going to lose their jobs if we crash out with No Deal in 9 week's time.

By the way, I won’t bother posting the link but Ford closed a number of factories in the U.K. and EU to move production of vehicles like the transit to Turkey (a factory funded by the EIB). Thousands of jobs lost in the EU to the benefit of non EU workers.

I don’t recall the tears of lamentation then?

 

[cunning fergus]

There are many 'AB's wanting out also.

Yep I agree, but they were the only classes that overwhelmingly voted remain.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ses-were-only-group-to-vote-to-stay-in-the-e/

 

[WATFORD zero]

There are many 'AB's wanting out also.

Well there's JRM, Tim Martin, Boris Johnson, cunning fergus and James Dyson for starters

 

[cunning fergus]

I want a federal EU, but that does not mean I am going to get one, much like your Socialist Republic UK dream, you and I hold minority views and we are not going to get what we want. Just because a Politician says he supports something, it does not make it an inevitable outcome. In fact if you took our Prime Minister as an example, you would be better off betting that what ever she says will happen, won't.

Comparitively speaking the federal EU is more likely than a socialist Gov in U.K. I grant you that, but what’s important is we understand the objectives at hand. I am clear that is what I want and can articulate my view on benefits etc.

You advocate a federalist future for the EU and amongst the remain group on here I think you are an outlier, which makes me wonder how committed pro EU people really are to the EU. Whilst I disagree with their views I can see the capitalist, big business arguments, we stay in or lose millions of jobs etc.

This dynamic is strange, it is consistent with how U.K. politicians ignore the changes being made (and planned) in the EU that indirectly or directly will impact on the U.K., whether we are in or out. This is a strategic point of course and some people are not strategic minded.

You seem to possess that insight, so what do you think the benefits of federalism are?

 

[nicko31]

Yep I agree, but they were the only classes that overwhelmingly voted remain.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ses-were-only-group-to-vote-to-stay-in-the-e/

Plenty I'm alright jack types of final salary pensions, blaming the EU how bad the final years have turned out

 

[cunning fergus]

Well there's JRM, Tim Martin, Boris Johnson, cunning fergus and James Dyson for starters

You (and a couple of others on here) have an unhealthy interest in my personal details, they are not important to this debate, I have never asked anyone to disclose theirs, nor have I seen that requested for other posters.

I have previously disclosed on other threads where I was bought up and some other details, they seem to pop up from other posters from time to time as insults so I will keep my powder dry.

For the record though I think you are born into your social class, and whatever happens in your life you remain rooted in that class. On that score I am not social class AB.