[Politics] Brexit

[Bold Seagull]

How can you say this is fact in the future?

Nobody, including you knows what will happen after 29th March, let alone 5-10 years time.
If we were inside the EU we would still have our vetoes and a voice, outside we have **** all, and we would still be hugely affected by what the EU does.
We have become the successful country we are, because of the EU, not in spite of it.

[MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION] knows. You must also know this by now!?

 

[cunning fergus]

There isn't even consensus to become a loose confederation, let alone moving toward a federation. I have no doubt there are those that do see it as a vision, Churchill for one probably coined the term United States of Europe. Where else could it go? Well, clearly as we are demonstrating it could go down the pan if member states reject it and decide to leave. Ultimately, whatever the outcome, we have proved our sovereignty in or out of the EU as we have demonstrated that we can leave at our choosing. We are not trapped or tied indefinitely. I hope we are not leaving just because of a fear of something that is yet to happen.

This view is inconsistent with the last 40 years of the EU though isn’t it? The lack of honesty amongst UK politicians about the direction of travel regarding the EU has been monumental and a key factor in the electorate’s latent euroscepticism.

In fact Ted Heath knew the EEC was working towards a single currency in 1974 following his agreement with Pompidou but this was never told to the public or MPs or his cabinet. Nice.

A future federal EU is the objective, let’s be honest about it for once, there are plenty on here that want that outcome anyway. What is missing of course from that constituency is the benefit of being in a federal EU.

The debate on the deal is a big issue now, but if we don’t leave lock stock and barrel then we will face the decision later on. Better to grasp the nettle now in my view.......let a 2nd vote be on this choice. Federal or independent?

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Let’s accept this happens, turn the dial forward and in 5-10 years the U.K. is in an EU that is federalising around the EZ countries(as we know it is and must). As the EZ represent the majority of countries in EU those outside the EZ are sidelined into accepting laws under majority voting.

The same politician says, as a country we are a fork in the road of our destiny. To continue to access the full benefits of the EU we should join the EZ and take our place in the federal EU, join the euro etc.

Or we turn our back on the EU and make our way outside the EU as an independent country.

Based on what we know now, what would you do?

Stay in. Thanks for asking.

 

[cunning fergus]

How can you say this is fact in the future?

Nobody, including you knows what will happen after 29th March, let alone 5-10 years time.
If we were inside the EU we would still have our vetoes and a voice, outside we have **** all, and we would still be hugely affected by what the EU does.
We have become the successful country we are, because of the EU, not in spite of it.

Having joined a “common market” in 1974 that has since morphed into a completely different institution with a Parliament, Commission and hundreds of thousands employed directly and indirectly I am on safe ground to predict that there is more change.

This week’s development regarding an EU army is a point of fact, as is the fact that the EZ need to integrate further if 5he euro is to survive. This is not a controversial point, it is an entirely reasonable prediction.

Interesting final point, I guess that means the chaos of Greece, Spain and Italy is also because of the EU, not in spite of it. What an endorsement of the EU, when can we join the euro?

 

[lawros left foot]

Having joined a “common market” in 1974 that has since morphed into a completely different institution with a Parliament, Commission and hundreds of thousands employed directly and indirectly I am on safe ground to predict that there is more change.

This week’s development regarding an EU army is a point of fact, as is the fact that the EZ need to integrate further if 5he euro is to survive. This is not a controversial point, it is an entirely reasonable prediction.

Interesting final point, I guess that means the chaos of Greece, Spain and Italy is also because of the EU, not in spite of it. What an endorsement of the EU, when can we join the euro?

We won’t, because we have a veto on it. We are also not liable to bail out any future problems.

 

[cunning fergus]

Let’s accept this happens, turn the dial forward and in 5-10 years the U.K. is in an EU that is federalising around the EZ countries(as we know it is and must). As the EZ represent the majority of countries in EU those outside the EZ are sidelined into accepting laws under majority voting.

The same politician says, as a country we are a fork in the road of our destiny. To continue to access the full benefits of the EU we should join the EZ and take our place in the federal EU, join the euro etc.

Or we turn our back on the EU and make our way outside the EU as an independent country.

Based on what we know now, what would you do?

Stay in. Thanks for asking.

Good stuff, what are the advantages for the U.k in a federal EU?

 

[Pavilionaire]

Let’s accept this happens, turn the dial forward and in 5-10 years the U.K. is in an EU that is federalising around the EZ countries(as we know it is and must). As the EZ represent the majority of countries in EU those outside the EZ are sidelined into accepting laws under majority voting.

The same politician says, as a country we are a fork in the road of our destiny. To continue to access the full benefits of the EU we should join the EZ and take our place in the federal EU, join the euro etc.

Or we turn our back on the EU and make our way outside the EU as an independent country.

Based on what we know now, what would you do?

Fact is this is the future, better to deal with it now.

David Cameron got a UK opt-out of further federalist measures in his EU Reform deal of Feb 2016. That states:

"It is recognised that the United Kingdom, in the light of the specific situation it has under the Treaties, is not committed to further political integration into the European Union. The substance of this will be incorporated into the Treaties at the time of their next revision in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Treaties and the respective constitutional requirements of the Member States, so as to make it clear that the references to ever closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom."

 

[Bold Seagull]

This view is inconsistent with the last 40 years of the EU though isn’t it? The lack of honesty amongst UK politicians about the direction of travel regarding the EU has been monumental and a key factor in the electorate’s latent euroscepticism.

In fact Ted Heath knew the EEC was working towards a single currency in 1974 following his agreement with Pompidou but this was never told to the public or MPs or his cabinet. Nice.

A future federal EU is the objective, let’s be honest about it for once, there are plenty on here that want that outcome anyway. What is missing of course from that constituency is the benefit of being in a federal EU.

The debate on the deal is a big issue now, but if we don’t leave lock stock and barrel then we will face the decision later on. Better to grasp the nettle now in my view.......let a 2nd vote be on this choice. Federal or independent?

Given there isn't a federation, and we are already independent, would seem a bit of a pointless referendum.

A United Federation of Europe has been an ideological position dating back to the 1920s, probably before. It isn't some clandestine notion that has been hushed up given it pre-dates the EU. Two world wars and seemingly endless death and conflict certainly made it a desirable notion at the end of the 40s.

It is a convenient hypothesis for you to state as certainty and fact because it suits your narrative, that there is no other path for the EU. However, as I pointed out above, as members of the EU, we have already put a log across that path, and it's clear we're not the only ones.

Has there been a notion or ideological pursuit of a Federal States of Europe? Yes, of course there has, and for some that probably still is a goal. Is it inevitable the EU will be the vehicle to this? Of course not, the EU could collapse in the next 5 years with what has happened if other countries leave too. I think that at times you make some very valid points, and at others you are an old school propagandist.

 

[cunning fergus]

[MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION] knows. You must also know this by now!?

This thread is full of predictions and forecasts from posters regarding impending Brexit catastrophe for this country, comparitively speaking in my view it is far more certain that the EU is on the road to a federal future.

If you disagree that’s fine, neither of us at this stage are right or wrong are we?

 

[cunning fergus]

We won’t, because we have a veto on it. We are also not liable to bail out any future problems.

Things change don’t they?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...opean-commission-brexit-ireland-a8729396.html

You are suggesting that is in place in 2019 is fixed, I think that given the change that has happened since 1974, I’m much more likely to be right than you.

 

[cunning fergus]

Given there isn't a federation, and we are already independent, would seem a bit of a pointless referendum.

A United Federation of Europe has been an ideological position dating back to the 1920s, probably before. It isn't some clandestine notion that has been hushed up given it pre-dates the EU. Two world wars and seemingly endless death and conflict certainly made it a desirable notion at the end of the 40s.

It is a convenient hypothesis for you to state as certainty and fact because it suits your narrative, that there is no other path for the EU. However, as I pointed out above, as members of the EU, we have already put a log across that path, and it's clear we're not the only ones.

Has there been a notion or ideological pursuit of a Federal States of Europe? Yes, of course there has, and for some that probably still is a goal. Is it inevitable the EU will be the vehicle to this? Of course not, the EU could collapse in the next 5 years with what has happened if other countries leave too. I think that at times you make some very valid points, and at others you are an old school propagandist.

Really, this is too easy.......

https://mobile.twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/960103430579777537?lang=en

Now, on the prospect of a USE who do I listen too you or a senior European politician?

So, this referendum........are you with Guy V or Nigel F?*

*just a tease I mean Jezza C.

 

[Baker lite]

No, we haven’t got one of those ,a politician, any politician, just someone with the balls to stand up and put a stop to this madness.

It will be incredibly detrimental to our country, and someone should have the guts to say bollox to the referendum 17.4 million people got it wrong, we cannot compound that decision, with an exit of any kind from the EU.

Priceless.



On our way.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Bold Seagull]

This thread is full of predictions and forecasts from posters regarding impending Brexit catastrophe for this country, comparitively speaking in my view it is far more certain that the EU is on the road to a federal future.

If you disagree that’s fine, neither of us at this stage are right or wrong are we?

Well, you have been stating these opinions as facts, I can only speak for myself and not certain about any of it, like you said, can only give opinion.

 

[cunning fergus]

David Cameron got a UK opt-out of further federalist measures in his EU Reform deal of Feb 2016. That states:

"It is recognised that the United Kingdom, in the light of the specific situation it has under the Treaties, is not committed to further political integration into the European Union. The substance of this will be incorporated into the Treaties at the time of their next revision in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Treaties and the respective constitutional requirements of the Member States, so as to make it clear that the references to ever closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom."

Oh yes we can sleep easy in our beds now, there is a piece of paper from CMD.........non federalisation of the EU in our time.

Nice one.........excuse my cynicism.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Really, this is too easy.......

https://mobile.twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/960103430579777537?lang=en

Now, on the prospect of a USE who do I listen too you or a senior European politician?

So, this referendum........are you with Guy V or Nigel F?*

*just a tease I mean Jezza C.

Weird, pretty sure I said there would be those that want it.

You do have a habit of reading only what you want to see.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Oh yes we can sleep easy in our beds now, there is a piece of paper from CMD.........non federalisation of the EU in our time.

Nice one.........excuse my cynicism.

This is not "a piece of paper from Dave" this is a formal opt-out enshrined in EU law. We have 4 such opt-outs: Schengen, Economic and Monetary Union, Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union and Area of Freedom, Security and Justice. No other country has as many as 4, indeed only 3 other countries have opt-outs (Denmark, Ireland, Poland).

So if Europe decides to go more federal we do not have to take part. This is a fact.

 

[cunning fergus]

Weird, pretty sure I said there would be those that want it.

You do have a habit of reading only what you want to see.

I know, and one of those is a senior EU politician.

What’s really weird is apart from some remainers on here who are genuinely open about their support for a federal USE, others argue it won’t happen or even that it’s not the EU’s current direction of travel.

For those who appear to advocate remain there is a strange coyness about its ultimate aim. It’s like a soft remain.

 

[nicko31]

[tweet]1088412567251365888[/tweet]

We can't sign anything until we've left. The reality is there is nothing ready to sign even if we do leave on 29/3

 

[cunning fergus]

This is not "a piece of paper from Dave" this is a formal opt-out enshrined in EU law. We have 4 such opt-outs: Schengen, Economic and Monetary Union, Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union and Area of Freedom, Security and Justice. No other country has as many as 4, indeed only 3 other countries have opt-outs (Denmark, Ireland, Poland).

So if Europe decides to go more federal we do not have to take part. This is a fact.

I see, so you are saying it won’t ever happen?

 

[Hampster Gull]

Let’s do it, stuff them, let’s jump, no deal Brexit. What’s the worst that can happen. I think everyone needs to lighten up and just do it. It might be ok, it might not be, but whatever. We can have less regulation, lower taxation, compete on price and standards. Keep the EU on their toes as a great trading nation on their doorstep undercuts them. The EU, the bureaucrats, the can all do one, slimey gits