[Politics] Brexit

[pastafarian]

You might not want to say what the reason two referendums seemed a good idea to Mogg were in 2011, because the same logic would apply today i.e. in the first scenario, there would be a negotiated outcome that would be unpredictable at the time of the first referendum, and so a second referendum would make sense, on whether to accept the negotiation outcome or keep the status quo. Is that not the case?

The first scenario does not give a definitive decision on leaving or staying and accepting the status quo as it is at that point in time with a two way voting choice where as the second scenario which we had, does give that instruction via a two way voting choice.
One involves renegotiation to remain in before a two way vote to decide and one involves negoatiation to Leave after a two way vote to decide and after a decision is made.They are not the same scenario no matter how much you say they are and not the same logic.
As you know we went for an election vote where the Tories promised to renegotiate membership and then put that to the people via an IN/OUT two way choice with a definitive instruction of what should happen, a far better way of doing the original scenario which is deeply flawed and unfair anyway. But thats a different argument

 

[pastafarian]

The time must fly round yours.

I would hazard a guess it flies at the same speed round yours

 

[Thunder Bolt]

And yet both Merkel and Macron have said the next step in European security is an EU army.

France & Germany both use the euro, and drive on the right.
We have the power of veto, if we want to use it.

We already work alongside European forces in various areas. NATO is looking dodgy at the moment whilst Trump is president.

 

[WATFORD zero]

So 'no deal' means a hard border in Ireland

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/its-pretty-obvious-ireland-will-have-hard-border-in-no-deal-brexit-scenario-eu/ar-BBSAxgg

Well who could have guessed ?

In other news, Bears are found defecating in woods, the Pope reveals he's catholic and Dolly Parton admits she sleeps on her front

 

[cunning fergus]

France & Germany both use the euro, and drive on the right.
We have the power of veto, if we want to use it.

We already work alongside European forces in various areas. NATO is looking dodgy at the moment whilst Trump is president.

Things change though though dont they, the idea of a European Army was a fantasy according to Nick Clegg and yet here it is writ large, no longer just an idea, practical steps are in train. In the same way vetos and voting under QMV is all subject to change....

https://www.euractiv.com/section/economy-jobs/news/eu-wants-end-to-member-state-veto-on-tax/

The EU political salami slicer is turned up to full to get along to a fully federalised State, stop denying it and tell us the benefits, we can move the debate on.

 

[nicko31]

So 'no deal' means a hard border in Ireland

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/its-pretty-obvious-ireland-will-have-hard-border-in-no-deal-brexit-scenario-eu/ar-BBSAxgg[ell who could have guessed ?

In other news, Bears are found defecating in woods, the Pope reveals he's catholic and Dolly Parton admits she sleeps on her front

Very good...

Yes the UK proposing is basically breaching a major International Peace Treaty.

Do the Tory party really want to own that?

 

[cunning fergus]

This makes little sense but the second paragraph is completely incoherent. You might be saying that 'racist thickos' is a euphemism for being uneducated. Or, alternatively, that the thread is soaked with contempt for EDL knuckle-draggers. Or that 'politically uninterested' is (bizarrely) my way of referring to the working classes.

In fact, my own post offered a thought on why people with lower levels of education apparently voted Leave in disproportionate numbers (given that, in my view, they are not 'thick'). I solicited your view because I thought it would be interesting, that we might have a point of agreement. I cannot fault your response to this for the simple reason that there wasn't one.

You preferred instead (last para) to refer to my 'supposition that the poor voted remain... and the Tory toffs voted leave'. Point me to where I said, or alluded to, or implied such a thing. You are correct in saying that this matter is a wonderful example of how people ignore facts. The contortions, I fear, are all yours.

You think you were offering a thought, when a little further on you make the assumption (and leap) that because they are uneducated they are more susceptible to the clarion calls of leave press.

So there is your prejudice, concerning the uneducated (which is a euphemism for the working class) and the leave campaign combined. The truth of course is that many millions of the working class are living lives that are more profoundly affected by (say) competing for work with EU workers than social classes AB will never know about.

That’s why the ABs voted overwhelmingly remain, the working class didn’t.

In the circumstances why don’t you offer a thought how working class people will see their working conditions prosper by remaining in the EU with its unregulated labour market?

 

[WATFORD zero]

Things change though though dont they, the idea of a European Army was a fantasy according to Nick Clegg and yet here it is writ large, no longer just an idea, practical steps are in train. In the same way vetos and voting under QMV is all subject to change....

https://www.euractiv.com/section/economy-jobs/news/eu-wants-end-to-member-state-veto-on-tax/

The EU political salami slicer is turned up to full to get along to a fully federalised State, stop denying it and tell us the benefits, we can move the debate on.

Why don't you simply admit that this is a great money making opportunity for the financial markets and people who work within it and take advantage of it (like JRM and Nigel Farage and friends). To try and regulate multi-national companies (like the ones you keep on quoting), businesses and economies at a state level is just ridiculous in the 21st century and would leave Britain open to every shyster with a few quid.

Why don't you simply admit this, rather than waffle on about the socialist principles being destroyed by the EU.Then we can move the debate on

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....british-fishermen-square-up-to-no-deal-brexit

Fisherman on a whole voted for Brexit and are now worried about what it means.

 

[mikeyjh]

Yes but you were all cheering at the job losses. How many jobs going from its head office. Have you read the whole article yet ?

Well, there's 2 for sure, the CEO and the FD - And I guarantee you that CEOs and FDs don't like working without a team around them. There will be many roles relocating to Singapore from the UK, regardless of what the company claims.

 

[nicko31]

Well, there's 2 for sure, the CEO and the FD - And I guarantee you that CEOs and FDs don't like working without a team around them. There will be many roles relocating to Singapore from the UK, regardless of what the company claims.

£100m of tax will now be paid in Singapore instead of the UK

Still, that's only 4000 nurses, chicken feed compared to the £4.2B wasted on no deal...

When the Brexiteers have mates like James Dyson, who needs enemies?

 

[The Clamp]

Very good...

Yes the UK proposing is basically breaching a major International Peace Treaty.

Do the Tory party really want to own that?

Do you really think they care? They’re in bed with the DUP for starters.
I’m half convinced Theresa May is a bet made by overpaid rotters in the Westminster bar at two in the morning after too many Brandys to see how much deplorable bullshit the public will swallow.

 

[Blue3]

Recently I have noticed to speeding of companies announcing their intention to either move to mainland Europe today it's Sony they are off to Holland

 

[Pretty Plnk Fairy]

Recently I have noticed to speeding of companies announcing their intention to either move to mainland Europe today it's Sony they are off to Holland

thats grate because it will make my PlayStation games cheaper cos the pound has decreaes its cost against the euro so another winner for Brexit so take that again you TOBYS as i can afford to bye more games with my pocket money so mum is happy to

Regards
DR

 

[Rodney Thomas]

Greece fought one of the most bitter rearguard actions of the 2nd World War after comprehensively beating the Italians back into Albania. They also continued to fight against the Germans for the duration of the war even after sustaining incomprehensible hardship as a result of the occupation and resistance.

Do they count?

Any danger of a response to this [MENTION=14132]Two Professors[/MENTION], I enjoy a good history debate

 

[Thunder Bolt]

You think you were offering a thought, when a little further on you make the assumption (and leap) that because they are uneducated they are more susceptible to the clarion calls of leave press.

So there is your prejudice, concerning the uneducated (which is a euphemism for the working class) and the leave campaign combined. The truth of course is that many millions of the working class are living lives that are more profoundly affected by (say) competing for work with EU workers than social classes AB will never know about.

That’s why the ABs voted overwhelmingly remain, the working class didn’t.

In the circumstances why don’t you offer a thought how working class people will see their working conditions prosper by remaining in the EU with its unregulated labour market?

There is no way I am classed as an AB, as I am most definitely, even by your definition, working class. I've been a trade union member for the majority of my working life.
I've seen my working conditions improve way above what I thought would happen because of EU rules, like maternity leave, the working week, and even an extra Bank Holiday.

I understand that the construction industry, chippies, sparkies and plumbers are the ones who have had trouble due to Europeans coming in. Instead of working with them, they've turned against them when the construction industry should have been reformed and blacklisting outlawed. They were let down by the system, not the Europeans.
The NHS, schools and universities on the other hand have benefited greatly from Freedom of Movement.

 

[Simster]

In the circumstances why don’t you offer a thought how working class people will see their working conditions prosper by remaining in the EU with its unregulated labour market?

Simple solution - freedom of movement should only apply amongst people of broadly similar strength economies, just as it was in the 90s when the EC was made up of 12 or so wealthy nations . That way, there is no enormous influx of cheap (often unskilled) labour that undercuts local people. You'll recall that British labourers took advantage of this themselves - Auf wiedersehen pet was a television comedy all about it. The whole thing started to unravel when the iron curtain came down and those nations joined the EU. Nothing wrong with that, as long as there were conditions on freedom of movement from those poorer nations for an agreed period of time.

Oh wait, there were. It's just that successive governments didn't impose those seven year clauses. You can blame 5 years of Blairite Labour and then the Tories for all of that. Had they looked after their people, we'd never have been in this mess.

Oh and the uneducated is *not* a euphemism for the working class, that's you and your tedious class-warrior narrative kicking in yet again. It's a euphemism for complete simpletons like the handful of brexiteers on here who are too stupid to engage in meaningful debate. I'm not talking about the likes of Westene, Gwylan, Portslade, GT49 or yourself, I'm talking about people like 2 braincells, bakerlite and sir albion who don't ever bother thinking and responding sensibly to genuine brexit concerns. These people are fcking idiots. Oh and they'd probably take issue with your working class definitions themselves, especially as I doubt any of them would vote for Corbyn in a million years.

 

[Bold Seagull]

The truth of course is that many millions of the working class are living lives that are more profoundly affected by (say) competing for work with EU workers than social classes AB will never know about.

The question is, are they though? The construction industry as an example has had a labour shortage that is deepening since 2013. Not just labourers, right the way through from labouring through to site and project management senior positions. The evidence is that most contractors prefer hiring British workers, especially with English as first language, however there simply are not enough especially when you do need the skills and trades. With many EU workers now returning to their home countries, not just because of the threat of Brexit, but because their own economies and construction industries have improved, the UK is not just facing, but is within a construction recruitment, dare I say it, crisis.

The truth of it is, that EU workers didn't reduce wages in the construction industry, or take any jobs from any British working people prepared to put a shift in, far from it, they enabled British contractors to grow, invest and take on projects.

What we can be fairly sure of, is that construction costs will rise significantly, not just through the labour shortage, but we are already seeing 5% increases per annum in the materials cost index, and given most comes from the EU, that will only increase too. Given construction is a huge driver of the UK economy, this should be a real concern, but is seemingly off the radar.

 

[A1X]

[TWEET]1088014419358027776[/TWEET]

 

[Westdene Seagull]

And yet not one person can put forward a good reason not to have one. Sharing our technology, equipment, personnel and intellegence will only help us all in the future. How is that a bad thing!? Unless of course you assume one or all of us will go rogue at any moment...probably that is what leavers think.

The arguement for an EU army is entirely different to one being on the cards. Remainers KEPT saying it was a lie yet only a handful of months after the Bexit vote what happens ? France and Germany suggest it as a way forward. Remainers clearly didn't know what they were voting for.

The pros and cons of an EU army have been debated on this thread already. But to summarise for you little Plooks, I'm against it for a number of reasons :

a. NATO is a far more powerful military force and has kept the peace in Europe for decades.
b. Unlike NATO an EU army would be under the control of the EU not individual countries.
c. It's the next step to an EU Superstate - appoint an EU Defence Minister to run this EU army and hey presto you're very near being a super state.

There's loads more but I'll let you read back on this thread to find out.