[Politics] Brexit

[Kinky Gerbil]

https://youtu.be/XiWhq-8IZX8

2/3 years to late.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Do you think young people in places like Rochdale and Rotherham are feeling more positive about Muslims than their parents?

This is going way off topic, but... yes, I think so. At least I think the kids are more likely to feel positive towards some - i.e. they will have enough direct experience to distinguish between good and bad PEOPLE, rather than older generations who are more likely to succumb to the media-driven Muslim bogeymen ideas.

I think your point makes sense in places like Richmond and Rugby, but then its only been working class kids that have been affected by grooming gangs .

Did you mean to type 'Rugby'? You've never been to Rugby, I take it.

 

[cunning fergus]

Thanks for your response.
If you look at the EU and the numbers of people it employs, and the cost of that, you have to consider that without the EU, 28 different countries would be employing people in similar roles in their civil service. There is a huge saving to every member, in the EU having taken on some of these areas of bureaucracy, and benefits not easily achievable as individual nations have been gained.
The UK is going to try and retain access to some of the institutions and will contribute to funding, so we probably won't lose all, but there are some things that by refusal to accept EU courts having jurisdiction, we just won't be able to.

For me, the benefits vastly outweigh the negatives, and there is always the possibility of resolving some the negatives.

You were honest enough previously to say you were in favour of integration, and i expect that means joining the euro.

If we have a second referendum, it should be the choice between all in and all out, because that is ultimately what the EU leadership is heading for. This would be the best way to resolve the impasse, because the discussiond about remaining/leaving now are not reflecting the bigger picture.

Limiting the question will only create more difficulty when new treaties are negotiated whether or not we ste at the table.

People can understand this choice, fully in with euros, full freedom of movement, handing over economic decisions to the ECB, a fully integrated EU Army, etc.

Thats what its really about, if we have to decide again thats what it should be about, because thats what its been about for the last 40 years.

 

[fanseagull]

MOULDY BOOTS

Ahh, I remember now, I hope you told your friends, I will be bringing them gold frankincense and myrrh.

Did you also tell them of the many wars and how people lost family, friends and possessions such as iPhones and Amazon Echo's?

I am sure if the going get's tough they will become stronger and better people, snowflakes can turn into big tough Icebergs. **disclaimer unless global warming happens first** ahh we are all going to die.

I hope I have reassured you and your mates, please enter into my faith and follow the leader..................on Mouldydoestwatter.com



Well remembered... do you have short term memory issues? Just asking.....

You remember that you exhorted me to tell the friends threatened with redundancy to look to the longer term when facing this 'challenge'. I did just that.

You may not remember that I exhorted you to accept your share of the responsibility of any Brexit downside and try and convince your colleagues of similar persuasion to do the same. Did you?

Likewise, I also felt that your argument would have greater weight if you are in a similarly vulnerable position to that being experienced by these young people. So I asked you if you were. Twice. No response.

Just wondered if you remembered and, if so, whether you feel able to meet those two requests.

 

[JCL666]

I don't doubt teh Americans are keen to get involved in outsourcing deals with the NHS that they are prevented from obtaining now and I don't agree that they should be allowed.

But you're just deflecting from the statements you and Clamp made that the NHS is being privatised. As yet neither of you have provided a single example of something in the NHS that has been privatised that meets the definition of privatisation ..... instead you just decide to ignore the real differences between the two process. I suggest you google the differences between the two processes ..... or come up with real examples.

You're joking right?

Definition of privatisation
"the transfer of a business, industry, or service from public to private ownership and control."

Outsourcing of services previously supplied via public services to private organisations is exactly that.

 

[Questions]

Is that not why we vote? I don't vote for 'A' and expect 'B' to represent me.

I know, let's bin this mad, democratic voting nonsense and go a bit wild.

“Does history record any case in which the majority was right?”

 

[Westdene Seagull]

You're joking right?

Definition of privatisation
"the transfer of a business, industry, or service from public to private ownership and control."

Outsourcing of services previously supplied via public services to private organisations is exactly that.

You seem to have completely blanked the word 'ownership'

 

[cunning fergus]

This is going way off topic, but... yes, I think so. At least I think the kids are more likely to feel positive towards some - i.e. they will have enough direct experience to distinguish between good and bad PEOPLE, rather than older generations who are more likely to succumb to the media-driven Muslim bogeymen ideas.


You may be right but a couple of seasons ago having gone to Rochdale the impression I had from locals I spoke to that there were some very difficult problems there, housing, schools and hospitals running some forms of segregation. The worst I heard was in Blackburn, but it is consistent with the views I get from mates in Brum and Oldham, and family in Wakefield.

Anecdotes are not fact, and I am not suggesting there is an imminent race war, however I don’t think that it’s getting better, with each new “scandal” there is an effect on social trust, not everyone but it’s enough I think. Yesterday on BBC the arrests of 55 men in Dewsbury was less important than Gove’s rules on wood burning stoves. That’s maybe how the BBC editor understands it, but that’s not how it is in Dewsbury.

Did you mean to type 'Rugby'? You've never been to Rugby, I take it.

Yep, I had the pleasure of attending a function at the private school, not quite Rugby town, however I think Warwick borough was one of the only northern boroughs to vote remain? They are dyed in the wool tories in that area, have you not been to Leamington Spa?

 

[Sussex Nomad]

Yep, I had the pleasure of attending a function at the private school, not quite Rugby town, however I think Warwick borough was one of the only northern boroughs to vote remain? They are dyed in the wool tories in that area, have you not been to Leamington Spa?

What has Brexit (or remain) got to do with political swayings?

 

[Baldseagull]

So, just call Labour Tories and blame them for being the latter... still couldn't make it up.

Not Labour of old or Labour now, New Labour, Blairs Labour.
It was a Labour Government that gave us the NHS, the party then was nothing like New Labour.
You seem to be incredulous with me for saying pretty much what you said, I say that New Labour and the Tories were very similar, only difference is that I say this is because New Labour acted like Tories.

 

[Is it PotG?]

“Does history record any case in which the majority was right?”

Who is to decide the right/wrong?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

 

[Sussex Nomad]

Not Labour of old or Labour now, New Labour, Blairs Labour.
It was a Labour Government that gave us the NHS, the party then was nothing like New Labour.
You seem to be incredulous with me for saying pretty much what you said, I say that New Labour and the Tories were very similar, only difference is that I say this is because New Labour acted like Tories.

So the Tories have not changed with the times over the ages either? There isn't really an argument here I can be bothered with. Labour and Conservatives have equally screwed the NHS and economy over the years, it is not exclusive.

 

[BBassic]

My cortex was noticeably fully developed the day I didn't sleep with my best man girlfriend, even though she was howling like a wolf.

For the record, I never read newspapers, all my opinions are based on real life.



Ahh, I remember now, I hope you told your friends, I will be bringing them gold frankincense and myrrh.

Did you also tell them of the many wars and how people lost family, friends and possessions such as iPhones and Amazon Echo's?

I am sure if the going get's tough they will become stronger and better people, snowflakes can turn into big tough Icebergs. **disclaimer unless global warming happens first** ahh we are all going to die.

I hope I have reassured you and your mates, please enter into my faith and follow the leader..................on Mouldydoestwatter.com




Never said anyone was, I am just saying, many think they know it all under 24, but in fact, they have been to Uni for most of those years and have very little real-life experience.

I have never been of the notion I know considerably more than thou because I am considerably older than thou.

You don't need "real life experience" to form an opinion on a political position.

It's also easy to argue to that many people over 24 think they know it all.

I do get what you're saying to a certain degree. I knew very little about owning property and what effect voting for a particular party over the other would mean until more recently when I bought a place. But the idea that there's some arbitrary process to go through somehow linked with age and "life experience" (which differs from person to person anyway) doesn't wash with me at all.

 

[cunning fergus]

I mean the Treaty of Rome basically spells everything out, dates from 1950 and is something the UK signed up to. So the idea Britain didn't know what it was getting into is frankly ludicrous.

So a treaty designed to reduce the likelihood of war produced 5 years after WW2 considered how Europe would be 68 years later?

When we joined the Common Market in 74 aside from Heath and a few others no one knew about the euro, federalisation, the expansion to include countries behind the iron curtain, the EU Commission etc.

If you really think they did, now that would be ludicrous!

 

[portslade seagull]

Not Labour of old or Labour now, New Labour, Blairs Labour.
It was a Labour Government that gave us the NHS, the party then was nothing like New Labour.
You seem to be incredulous with me for saying pretty much what you said, I say that New Labour and the Tories were very similar, only difference is that I say this is because New Labour acted like Tories.

New Labour almost wanted to be Tories

 

[Baldseagull]

Do you think young people in places like Rochdale and Rotherham are feeling more positive about Muslims than their parents? I think your point makes sense in places like Richmond and Rugby, but then its only been working class kids that have been affected by grooming gangs (another 55 arrested yesterday) and they voted Brexit in place like Rochdale and Rotherham (to bring it back to the subject of the thread).

I couldn't be sure, but I suspect that in Rotherham and Rochdale young people are more positive than their parents about Muslims, yes. I understand your point that in some areas, integration has not happened as well as in others, and that there may be tensions between communities, but I would still expect those to have had more interaction with each other to have less fears of each other.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

So a treaty designed to reduce the likelihood of war produced 5 years after WW2 considered how Europe would be 68 years later?

When we joined the Common Market in 74 aside from Heath and a few others no one knew about the euro, federalisation, the expansion to include countries behind the iron curtain, the EU Commission etc.

If you really think they did, now that would be ludicrous!

It always makes me smile when people who voted Remain said they just voted for the status quo or knew exactly what they voted for ... #clueless

 

[Thunder Bolt]

So a treaty designed to reduce the likelihood of war produced 5 years after WW2 considered how Europe would be 68 years later?

When we joined the Common Market in 74 aside from Heath and a few others no one knew about the euro, federalisation, the expansion to include countries behind the iron curtain, the EU Commission etc.

If you really think they did, now that would be ludicrous!

That's why there has been continuous negotiations and use of the power of veto. Proof that Brussels don't tell us what to do, but agreements and treaties are negotiated.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

That's why there has been continuous negotiations and use of the power of veto. Proof that Brussels don't tell us what to do, but agreements and treaties are negotiated.

Name a veto.

 

[The Clamp]

No, that's not the point I was making.

If you think that we have an EU Commission today which you agree with, and we have a Government today that you hate, that may be true.

Tomorrow we may have your ideal UK Government (let's say a liberal, left leaning Government), with policies of which you approve. & Tomorrow we may have a European Commission comprised of "swivel eyed loons" (let's say an ultra Conservative, right wing Commission), with policies you despise.

Your view that the EU Commission is on "your side" and the UK Government is not on your side is short sighted, it's based on current and inherently temporary conditions. But our ability (or not) to change law makers (be they good or bad) is permanent.

If we stay in the EU then, today, the Conservative government you hate will be disempowered and will have their hands tied, and the EU Commission will be the ultimate law maker - a state of affairs which might seem appealing - today. But tomorrow the Liberal government which you will want empowered won't be, and the EU Commission which you hate will be the ultimate law maker. A state of affairs from which there will be no escape.

I'm not saying that you should be for the principle of UK democracy because you should be in favor of today's government. I'm saying that you should be for it because you should be in favor of the principle of self government itself. That is ultimately what this is about.

A lot of assumption in that post.