[Politics] Brexit

[Baldseagull]

So what? Are you advocating visa free travel for the purposes of tourism or short business trips should end.
The ones that slip through the net and state their intention is not to live here long term or work but really intend to do both illegally is one of the prices you pay for allowing foreign nationals to visit us and us to visit them under the visa waiver system. The trick is to weed them out at the border, and that skill belongs to enforcement officers.
I can get an ESTA and permission to travel to the states(thats all it is, permission to travel, not permission to enter) but its the border officer who decides if i can enter for my holiday or not. If i and a million Brits abused this and got an illegal job when there instead of just having a holiday then that visa waiver system would soon end. (recent example Iran and Serbia)
Better we are able to ask what their intentions are at the border than not (as in the case currently with EU nationals)
But this is all very different from intending to live long term or work where this necessitates applying for a visa to enter,applications that now increasingly require a criminal check certificate to be pass. Two different entities all together, there is no need to confuse and conflate the two

Brazilians apparently are the worst overstayers, May wanted to change their visa status when Home Secretary but was persuaded not to as Trade Sec advised it would damage trade.
Are you wanting visa only travel for all EU nationals, thereby damaging trade with the EU further?

 

[clapham_gull]

Make your minds up chaps

You posted two quotes from someone who makes the same point and two random others who disagree.

You could spend all day doing that on here

Now would the Brexit camp please stand up and give us a consolidated view on what Brexit means ? Of course not.

Unfortunately Parliament has got itself in a similar pickle. We all know what they don't want...........

 

[clapham_gull]

In terms of the "national interest", it's probably 2 things.

1) An acceptance of May's deal. At least it's a "start" for the Brexit camp.
2) The emergence of a new centre ground pro Europe political party (or within the main two parties) that will put pressure on whoever is in power to keep a close relationship with Europe.

That's the reality I'm afraid for the hard brexiteers if we leave in March. Pro European MPs aren't going anywhere soon and because of the oddness of our electoral system, they could end up with power even with a coalition.

If anyone genuinely thinks we are going to become a low regulation tax haven there are in cloud cuckoo land.

 

[pastafarian]

You posted two quotes from someone who makes the same point and two random others who disagree.

You could spend all day doing that on here

Now would the Brexit camp please stand up and give us a consolidated view on what Brexit means ? Of course not.

Unfortunately Parliament has got itself in a similar pickle. We all know what they don't want...........

Yes ....Brexit means Leave the European Union......it doesnt mean remain in the European Union.
Its important to quote nibble twice as clamp will claim he never really said that.

 

[clapham_gull]

If the last two years have taught us anything it is that Brexiteers think btexit mean argue like babies and cry when they don't get their wet dream brexit.

But they will never get it just as Corbyn supporters won't get Socialism for centuries to come. Every now and then a new party will get in power and sweep loads away from the previous.



Brexiteers appear to have forgotten general elections. You will eventually get a new centre ground party (new or from the two - more likely to be Labour) who will want to form a close alignment with Europe. They will be guaranteed a huge slice of the electorate.

The world didn't stop with Brexit.

 

[pastafarian]

Brazilians apparently are the worst overstayers, May wanted to change their visa status when Home Secretary but was persuaded not to as Trade Sec advised it would damage trade.
Are you wanting visa only travel for all EU nationals, thereby damaging trade with the EU further?

I would suggest you educate yourself on the difference between visa enforcement for moving here to work and live, as i have wanted,and visa free travel for tourists and short trip business visits that i have never advocated should come to an end.
Perhaps May had a point then if there was a lot of abuse by Brazilians......no one wants people living and working here illegally, even you i should imagine.Its a fine line to keep track of. Im sure if the Brazilian abuse had escalated to such extremes then that visa waiver would have been revoked such as has happened recently with Iran and Serbia. Wasnt the compromise increased scrutiny for Brazilians and they now have to bring the same documentation with them that they would need to apply for a visa in case they are subject to extra scrutiny by enforcement officers at entry.

 

[Baldseagull]

I would suggest you educate yourself on the difference between visa enforcement for moving here to work and live, as i have wanted,and visa free travel for tourists and short trip business visits that i have never advocated should come to an end.
Perhaps May had a point then if there was a lot of abuse by Brazilians......no one wants people living and working here illegally, even you i should imagine.Its a fine line to keep track of. Im sure if the Brazilian abuse had escalated to such extremes then that visa waiver would have been revoked such as has happened recently with Iran and Serbia. Wasnt the compromise increased scrutiny for Brazilians and they now have to bring the same documentation with them that they would need to apply for a visa in case they are subject to extra scrutiny by enforcement officers at entry.

I understand the difference, but you said "Checking up on people months after they have already crossed the border when their intention is to stay long term to live, jobseek or work is not adequate border control".

 

[pastafarian]

I understand the difference, but you said "Checking up on people months after they have already crossed the border when their intention is to stay long term to live, jobseek or work is not adequate border control".

Thats because its not adequate, if you intend to work and live here long term or even jobseek you should have a visa and permission to do that. We should know who is intending to enter the work place and who intends to live here long term. If you simply want to come here for a few months, hang out with your family and have a bit of a jolly where you have no intention of working or remaining long term then the visa waiver system allows for this, the duration allowance of which is dependant on your nationality. Which bit of this are your struggling to understand.

 

[melias shoes]

Yes ....Brexit means Leave the European Union......it doesnt mean remain in the European Union.
Its important to quote nibble twice as clamp will claim he never really said that.

That's what they're finding hard to understand. Or should that be accept?

 

[cunning fergus]

But they will never get it just as Corbyn supporters won't get Socialism for centuries to come. Every now and then a new party will get in power and sweep loads away from the previous.



Brexiteers appear to have forgotten general elections. You will eventually get a new centre ground party (new or from the two - more likely to be Labour) who will want to form a close alignment with Europe. They will be guaranteed a huge slice of the electorate.

The world didn't stop with Brexit.

That is probably right, but the trouble is that Brexit and politicians failure to deliver it will just further poison the well of trust that exists between the U.K. electorate and it’s government.

In the last general election, the only mainstream political party that actively sought to overturn the referendum was the Lib Dem’s and they lost ground to labour and the Tories that both campaigned to leave the EU, and yes even Anna Soubry.

The world won’t stop with Brexit whether it happens or not but ignoring or obscuficating the outcome of a referendum is going to cause it’s own problems. Time will tell of course.

 

[nicko31]

Next cross party amendment, this one is more significant....

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...y/news/100961/theresa-may-faces-fresh-commons

Would force the Prime Minister to come back to Parliament after three sitting days if she loses next Tuesday's meaningful vote.

Parliament needs to regain control of the chaos

 

[cunning fergus]

Yes, given that EU immigration has pretty much been replaced by non-EU on a one-to-one basis, I'm not quite sure where Cunning gets the idea that crime will come down after Brexit. If 57% of foreign prisoners are non-EU and 43% are from the EU, then, assuming those proportions hold, we're going to see an increase in foreign born prisoners in the coming years.

A lax immigration policy comes with a number of likely risks, and an increase in crime us one of those, it’s why around the world you cannot just rock up in them and start work or whatever you want to do.

Maybe if those politicians that advocate a lax immigration approach were as candid as you about the increase in foreign born prisoners residing in HM prisons then the we may not have got to the 14% rate a few years ago.

But crime is only one facet, a far more negative aspect is the effect that a liberal labour market has one the poor and low skilled. It’s another reason why other countries in the world require visas from foreign workers. That approach is the orthodoxy, the EU in contrast is unique, and why it’s unpopular in the UK amongst the working class.

Not with multi national businesses or conventional capitalist Tories of course........free markets are the holy grail.

 

[WATFORD zero]

You need a bigger shovel
View attachment 103642

No answers then ?

As if

Thats because its not adequate, if you intend to work and live here long term or even jobseek you should have a visa and permission to do that. We should know who is intending to enter the work place and who intends to live here long term. If you simply want to come here for a few months, hang out with your family and have a bit of a jolly where you have no intention of working or remaining long term then the visa waiver system allows for this, the duration allowance of which is dependant on your nationality. Which bit of this are your struggling to understand.

But you've always insisited the controls had to be at the border, not sometime afterwards.

I don't know whether you are just confused or whether you have changed your mind.

And I hate to point out the flaw in your new plan, but what if someone wants to live here but says they want to come for a holiday

 

[CHAPPERS]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ceding-dream-food-shortage-fruit-veg-supplier

As an organic vegetable grower trying to fill 50,000 boxes with a varied selection of vegetables 51 weeks a year – while juggling the needs of our 70,000 customers, 600 staff and 100 suppliers, plus our environment impact – Brexit is a cloud that complicates every decision, every day.



When the sun is out, looking 10 years forward and given sensible, consistent leadership I can (just) imagine UK food, farming and wildlife thriving outside the EU. In that distant utopia we would be eating more local and seasonal food, more plants and fewer animals from smaller producers known by their customers and supported, not just for the food they produce, but for their care for soil, wildlife and livestock and the access they offer to the public.

These genuine custodians of the land would use fewer, if any, pesticides and be supported and protected from world markets with lower standards. Michael Gove’s “public money for public goods” suggests a similar vision, though it is questionable how far it will survive trade negotiations, or whether he will be around long enough to be held to account for his warm, if slightly woolly, promises.

With 79 days left to the day the UK leaves the European Union, our utopia seems an ever‑receding dream, especially when those leading the Brexit charge seem so woefully ignorant of our industry. A “leave‑backing former cabinet minister” recently stated: “We won’t be able to get certain foods like bananas or tomatoes but it’s not like we won’t be able to eat. And we’ll be leaving at a time when British produce is beginning to come into season so it’s the best possible time to leave with no deal.”


March, though, is the worst possible time for a no-deal Brexit. Weather permitting, some crops will have been planted (this time last year, very few had been) but, dear politicians, they need time to grow: 29 March is, in fact, the start of the UK “hungry gap” when last year’s crops of kale, cabbage, greens, cauliflower, carrots, parsnips, swedes and stored apples, onions and potatoes are all coming to an end, while harvest of new-season crops will not start until mid-May.


Indeed, fresh UK veg is scarce until June. As a nation we import about 50% of our fruit and vegetables (for Riverford it is about 30%) but that figure starts rising in the new year, reaching about 80% in April before falling again in June. If there was a “best time for a no-deal Brexit”, it would be July to September, as any gardener could tell our politicians.

For 30 years Riverford has struggled with this reality – we even suspend our UK-only veg box from March to June because we often cannot find eight UK-grown items to put in it.

Over 20 years, we have developed a network of suppliers across Spain, Italy and France to bridge the hungry gap. Most are small and medium-sized organic farms who have become firm friends as well as trading partners. To see our businesses and relationships destroyed in the name of soundbites, bigotry and ignorance is disheartening. We will never grow lemons but with time, education and investment our diets and farming could adapt to be less dependent on imports, although the change will take years, not months.


Michael Gove and his fellow Brexiters may have had a point when suggesting the public had “had enough of experts”, but after 18 months of fractious and divisive campaigning driven by entrenched unlistening belief, I long for a return to reasoned debate. Facts really should matter in determining policy. Utopia, should Brexiters ever agree on its form, can only be delivered by leaders making decisions guided by consideration, and judgment based on sound information, not dogma and political ambition.

Were we to leave without a deal there couldn’t be a worse time than 29 March, unless you like woody swedes and sprouting potatoes. As for bananas, they are a tropical fruit with 99% coming from outside the EU anyway.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Looks like they have re-branded the 'Super Norway +++' solution as 'Common Market 2.0'

I'm a big fan of it - more so than remaining in the EU.

Ticks all the boxes for me, and all the "rule-taker" fake news is just that - fake.

https://twitter.com/AdrianYalland/status/1073867169723756544?s=19

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

CNN did a short piece this morning on Portsmouth ('an English seaside town') and a few random 'interviews' with Pompey's finest. Staggering - but made our home grown NSC Brexiteers look like philosopher kings. The CNN anchor raised an eyebrow which said a lot. What must the informed part of the planet think of us?

 

[nicko31]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ceding-dream-food-shortage-fruit-veg-supplier

Its OK JRM has glasshouses on his Estate growing all manor of fruit and vegetables, even Bananas and Pineapples...

 

[fanseagull]

You liked a drink then ?

Yes, but not that much.......

 

[Simster]

Explain to me what you consider racist in that post.If you feel it is racist then complain to the site moderators.If you cannot explain,and the moderators don't sanction me,then an apology would be in order.If not,then you are just a typical lazy lefty sheep,good at handing out abusive epithets without any understanding of why.The Windrush reference is because the clown I was referring to in my post was adamant Floella Benjamin had arrived on that ship.It sank before she was born.

I must have said this three times now, but no I did NOT say Floella Benjamin arrived on The Windrush. I've even searched NSC to find evidence of saying something similar, and guess what - it isn't there.

Therefore I must assume [MENTION=15605]knocky1[/MENTION] is right - you probably are a racist as well as a complete simpleton.

 

[A1X]

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No wonder the Government is starting to get cold feet about loss of life in the event of No Deal.