[Politics] Brexit

[Thunder Bolt]

But you are dishonest.
You have continued to repeat the lie that we have always been in control of our EU borders whilst being in the EU and signatories to EU freedom of movement protocols, protocols that limit the level of border controls that can be placed on EU citizens that otherwise exist and are in place on NON EU nationals.
I am not surprised you have now decided to flounce on the topic when you realise you are wrong,an incredibly poor excuse though its because you have been called dishonest,when the truth is you are clearly out of your depth. The victim card mentality is strong in you.
I have done much research on the topic, my preferred reading material on the subject is the articles in the treaties, EU directives and regulations and even the odd relevant ruling from The ECJ, all of which i have shared at sometime on this thread, the irony is not lost that your own level of research appears to be what you have been told on twitter.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I simply laughed and gave it the attention it deserved.

I know what you mean - I quite often do that with your posts on this thread too, as I did with the rest of your waffle written under the above, hence my not quoting it or reading it.

Night-night pasta.

 

[pastafarian]

View attachment 100329

Another fail.
Nothing in your post describes how we can take back control of our EU borders and implement quotas and entry permits on EU citizens as we currently do with Non EU nationals. Keep on rummaging around thinking you have found something . One of these days you will just have to admit your dishonesty.

 

[pastafarian]

I know what you mean - I quite often do that with your posts on this thread too, as I did with the rest of your waffle written under the above, hence my not quoting it or reading it.

Night-night pasta.

Stumped again my little flouncer.......I can see your nose getting longer from here.

 

[Baldseagull]

View attachment 100310

 

[Baldseagull]

Well that took all of 2 secs to find on google.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/10/eu-michel-barnier-brexit-deal-four-fifths-agreed

I think Plooks is suggesting that Michel Barnier just plucked the number 80 out of the air, it is not a real statistic just a turn of phrase.

 

[pastafarian]

Done to death, irrelevant different set of circumstances.......must try harder.

I think Plooks is suggesting that Michel Barnier just plucked the number 80 out of the air, it is not a real statistic just a turn of phrase.

Do you think Mr Verhofstadt was using a turn of phrase too and plucked 80% out of the air as well when he said a few weeks earlier that there is consensus on 80% of the withdrawal agreement.

Video
https://www.express.co.uk/videos/543464/Verhofstadt-Brexit-withdrawal-agreement-is-80-agreed

Its almost as though he is referring to some sort of document which informs you what has been agreed and what is still outstanding, leading to a conclusion that 80% has been agreed....…….i wonder if this elusive document can be found by searching for it (cough)

 

[Baldseagull]

Another fail.
Nothing in your post describes how we can take back control of our EU borders and implement quotas and entry permits on EU citizens as we currently do with Non EU nationals. Keep on rummaging around thinking you have found something . One of these days you will just have to admit your dishonesty.

We don't operate quotas and entry permits for all non EU nationals though, no Visa requirements for people staying for up to 6 months from lots of non EU countries. Many of these countries do not reciprocate fully, in that as a Brit going to some of these countries you will have only 90 days, or in the case of our special friends, the Americans, buy an ESTA to visit.
If you want a clue as to what factors determine how strictly we might control our borders in future, here is a piece from the BBC on the status of Brazil as a non visa nation, why it was under review, and why it was maintained. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21759744

Quotas are another matter, but without the EU buffer, it is going to be tricky for the UK government to set them where they should be.

 

[pastafarian]

We don't operate quotas and entry permits for all non EU nationals though, no Visa requirements for people staying for up to 6 months from lots of non EU countries. Many of these countries do not reciprocate fully, in that as a Brit going to some of these countries you will have only 90 days, or in the case of our special friends, the Americans, buy an ESTA to visit.
If you want a clue as to what factors determine how strictly we might control our borders in future, here is a piece from the BBC on the status of Brazil as a non visa nation, why it was under review, and why it was maintained. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21759744

Quotas are another matter, but without the EU buffer, it is going to be tricky for the UK government to set them where they should be.

I know, no one has ever claimed we implement them on all of them. We can however choose which work permits are subject to quotas (as we currently do), we can choose to alter these quotas and choose to expand quotas onto different tier groups or reduce the influence. We can choose to suspend tier admissions (as we have done) or expand them. We can choose the rules that apply for entry for those that require a visa and can choose the rules for visa waiver stays, which countries they apply to and the length of validity.
The border control choices of entry we can choose to apply to non EU citizens is lost to EU citizens. At least one person on here though is saying we have always had control of our EU borders (and subsequently therefore the whole EU immigration argument is false-cancel brexit). Anyone in their right mind can see we dont have the same border choices and controls on EU citizens as we do on non EU nationals. To suggest we have always had these controls is dishonest and quite dumb...........but thats brexit twitter for you

 

[Baldseagull]

Done to death, irrelevant different set of circumstances.......must try harder.



Do you think Mr Verhofstadt was using a turn of phrase too and plucked 80% out of the air as well when he said a few weeks earlier that there is consensus on 80% of the withdrawal agreement.

Video
https://www.express.co.uk/videos/543464/Verhofstadt-Brexit-withdrawal-agreement-is-80-agreed

Its almost as though he is referring to some sort of document which informs you what has been agreed and what is still outstanding, leading to a conclusion that 80% has been agreed....…….i wonder if this elusive document can be found by searching for it (cough)

What the document cannot inform you, is how big the differences are on what is outstanding.
He says, 80% agreed more or less, so I am quite sure it is an estimate and not accurate, and is a turn of phrase, like saying 3/4's of the way there, more or less, which may be more or less accurate than 80%.

This is all only at negotiator level, and has every chance of needing further amendment when it gets in front of the Parliaments. I am 100% sure it will be amended further.

 

[Baldseagull]

I know, no one has ever claimed we implement them on all of them. We can however choose which work permits are subject to quotas (as we currently do), we can choose to alter these quotas and choose to expand quotas onto different tier groups or reduce the influence. We can choose to suspend tier admissions (as we have done) or expand them. We can choose the rules that apply for entry for those that require a visa and can choose the rules for visa waiver stays, which countries they apply to and the length of validity.
The border control choices of entry we can choose to apply to non EU citizens is lost to EU citizens. At least one person on here though is saying we have always had control of our EU borders (and subsequently therefore the whole EU immigration argument is false-cancel brexit). Anyone in their right mind can see we dont have the same border choices and controls on EU citizens as we do on non EU nationals. To suggest we have always had these controls is dishonest and quite dumb...........but thats brexit twitter for you

I can't be arsed to check the details now, but I am pretty sure we can have a cap on numbers from the EU, but we have to have a reason other than protecting jobs for UK citizens. If we say we have a housing crisis, or if we say we have too much pressure on public services, we could cap numbers. Except that we are not set up to be able to do so, because we don't really have a system able to keep track of who is where. Our immigration figures are far from accurate, they are built up and extrapolated from passenger surveys at major airports and the chunnel, they don't even do the surveys at the ferry ports.

 

[Butch Willykins]

There is no data there though. Just a statement with nothing to back it up. Try again. I can not find anything that is not just someones word.

Watch the video. The EU chief negotiator thumbs thru the document and says it’s 80% complete. Stop being a complete nause,

 

[Butch Willykins]

I think Plooks is suggesting that Michel Barnier just plucked the number 80 out of the air, it is not a real statistic just a turn of phrase.

So are you saying Barnier completely made the figure up, with absolutely no fact behind it. Ok mate.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

I think Plooks is suggesting that Michel Barnier just plucked the number 80 out of the air, it is not a real statistic just a turn of phrase.

I think that I too have seen the 80% figure bandied about. But it is virtually meaningless. For example yesterday in the House, Raab was defending the extent of agreements so far agreed - but it was all the relatively small-scale stuff. It's a bit like working your way through a checklist of moving house and ticking off that you've packed away the crockery etc etc but admitting that you hadn't yet got a buyer for your house or anywhere to move!

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

I think that I too have seen the 80% figure bandied about. But it is virtually meaningless. For example yesterday in the House, Raab was defending the extent of agreements so far agreed - but it was all the relatively small-scale stuff. It's a bit like working your way through a checklist of moving house and ticking off that you've packed away the crockery etc etc but admitting that you hadn't yet got a buyer for your house or anywhere to move!

One rather amusing (if anything can be amusing when we are faced by a no-deal Brexit) was that a few MPs on the Select Committee - fresh from a meeting with Bernier - spoke up. Regardless of whether the MP was pro- or anti Brexit they all shared the distinct impression that Bernier had told them with total clarity that Chequers was a non-runner. Raab retorted by saying that they were being used by Bernier -which was quite hard for the Brexiteers to stomach.


It must be strange being Mr Raab as he has to stand in front of his ERG pals defending something that, had it not been for his promotion, he himself would be shouting down too but he now he's hung his career on.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Stumped again my little flouncer.......I can see your nose getting longer from here.

Stumped by you? Please.

I know, no one has ever claimed we implement them on all of them. We can however choose which work permits are subject to quotas (as we currently do), we can choose to alter these quotas and choose to expand quotas onto different tier groups or reduce the influence. We can choose to suspend tier admissions (as we have done) or expand them. We can choose the rules that apply for entry for those that require a visa and can choose the rules for visa waiver stays, which countries they apply to and the length of validity.
The border control choices of entry we can choose to apply to non EU citizens is lost to EU citizens. At least one person on here though is saying we have always had control of our EU borders (and subsequently therefore the whole EU immigration argument is false-cancel brexit). Anyone in their right mind can see we dont have the same border choices and controls on EU citizens as we do on non EU nationals. To suggest we have always had these controls is dishonest and quite dumb...........but thats brexit twitter for you

Since you mention your own personal fantasises and wishes on future border controls again post Brexit, all enforced with The UKBF at nearly 25% less than it was in 2010 as well as cuts to police numbers and all the other reductions to The Home Office and FCO budgets and functions, it's a fascinating little read by Sir Max Hastings in today's Times:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/brexit-will-not-help-us-curb-immigration-5p5k87qdq

A few facts and figures:

235,000 net migration from non-EU countries to The UK in the year to March v 87,000 from the EU.
Only 40% of those refused asylum in The UK since 2004 have actually left the country. (They'd all be non EU)
Illegal lorry drop detection's now running at 1,000 a month (That's just those detected obviously and they'd be all non-EU)
1 Million in The UK believed to be here illegally. (They'd all be non-EU)

A couple of quotes in the article by Sir Max that struck me:

I have not heard any prominent Brexiter propose a credible answer to the challenges posed by non-EU migration.

My point here is not to make a case for or against more draconian border controls, but instead merely to focus attention upon the fact that the practical and legal difficulties of controlling migration in the 21st century will not be resolved by Brexit. Those who suggest otherwise deceive their disciples.

Unless we create a fortress Britain which would paralyse tourism, commerce and the higher education industry, there are almost insuperable obstacles to restoration of the 1950s Miss Marple society about which some Brexiters fantasise.

It is hard to overstate the dishonesty of politicians who refuse to come clean about this. In a further contradiction, many of the standard-bearers of the right who claim that quitting Europe will curb migration also oppose, on libertarian grounds, a scheme of national identity cards. Yet this seems an indispensable preliminary to enable government to discover who has a right to be in Britain.

Today, however, a false prospectus is being peddled. Non-EU immigration, far in excess of government targets, seems likely to persist unless or until a prime minister shows the will to take measures to assuage it, to which Brexit will contribute nothing whatsoever.

Still, you carry on with your fantasises about the future border ( and other things that interest you on the internet of the really nasty nature) in peace.

 

[Berty23]

I see premier league football clubs have figured out that British jobs for British workers will affect them so want an exemption. As does the nhs, teaching, science, engineering etc. Do any sectors not want to be exempt?

 

[Pretty Plnk Fairy]

I see premier league football clubs have figured out that British jobs for British workers will affect them so want an exemption. As does the nhs, teaching, science, engineering etc. Do any sectors not want to be exempt?

if we had more british players such as Billie Painter at the albion i might start going again sick of these mersinaries who cant speak the langauge takeing jobs of local lads

regards
DR

 

[Berty23]

if we had more british players such as Billie Painter at the albion i might start going again sick of these mersinaries who cant speak the langauge takeing jobs of local lads

regards
DR

Good point. I remember watching billy at Coventry away and at one point he nearly ran. We need more like him.

 

[Baldseagull]

So are you saying Barnier completely made the figure up, with absolutely no fact behind it. Ok mate.

I am saying it isnt possible to quantify exactly how much of the job is done until it is all done, so 80% is his rough guess, not a fact.