[Politics] Brexit

[Two Professors]

I assume you're of the opinion that if we leave the EU that we wont still be paying into their coffers...? You know, when we want access to their market and have nothing but a significantly weakened economy to bargain on?

So does this mean you think we should ignore the £670,000,000 this corrupt and dying organisation have lost to fraud in 2015?

 

[Soulman]

The Left Case for Brexit.
As a consequence of these mistakes, the British left risks throwing away the one institution which it has, historically, been able to use effectively—the democratic state—in favor of a constitutional order tailor-made for the interests of global capitalism and managerial politics.
https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/left-case-brexit

 

[heathgate]

The suggestion that we should stay in the EU so we can reform it is laughable. Just look at how many times they have arrogantly ignored the will of the people:

Denmark 1992 - No vote 51.7% - IGNORED
Ireland 2001 - No vote 53.9% - IGNORED
France 2005 - No vote 54.9% - IGNORED
Netherlands 2005 - No vote 61.5% - IGNORED
Ireland 2008 - No vote 53.2% - IGNORED
Greece 2015 - No vote 61.3% - IGNORED

You really must understand this - they don't care what we think.

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[lawros left foot]

This is a question for both sides.
I presume most people would agree that Germany is the largest economy in the EU, and we are the second? If so, how come we are not as successful as the Germans? We have both had recessions in recent years, possibly ours was worse, but Germany has put more money into propping up the Euro than us, and they also had the massive expense of re-unification only about twenty years ago, we had the windfall of North Sea oil in the fairly recent past,and, they have had more economic migrants than us, a huge strain on resources according to some.
If we all abide by the same EU rules, which, surely we should, (yes,I do realise that we have a veto on quite a few decisions) as this seems to be the whole point of it, why is Germany, a country fairly evenly matched with us, and one that is at the centre of the , apparent, shambles that is the Euro, how come they are so much more successful than us, over recent years?

 

[Two Professors]

This is a question for both sides.
I presume most people would agree that Germany is the largest economy in the EU, and we are the second? If so, how come we are not as successful as the Germans? We have both had recessions in recent years, possibly ours was worse, but Germany has put more money into propping up the Euro than us, and they also had the massive expense of re-unification only about twenty years ago, we had the windfall of North Sea oil in the fairly recent past,and, they have had more economic migrants than us, a huge strain on resources according to some.
If we all abide by the same EU rules, which, surely we should, (yes,I do realise that we have a veto on quite a few decisions) as this seems to be the whole point of it, why is Germany, a country fairly evenly matched with us, and one that is at the centre of the , apparent, shambles that is the Euro, how come they are so much more successful than us, over recent years?

You have obviously never worked in industry.A lot of our industry is still using machinery built in the 1930's and even older.Germany was smashed flat in 1945 so it's industrial
capacity was rebuilt F.O.C. by the Allies and is much more efficient and debt free.We are still paying off the cost of defeating the Nazis,whereas the reparations they had to make were minimal by comparison,for two major reasons.The Americans wanted a strong West Germany as a bulwark against the Soviets,and if the Germans were forced into major debt they feared a resurgence of extremism.

 

[beorhthelm]

This is a question for both sides....
If we all abide by the same EU rules, which, surely we should, (yes,I do realise that we have a veto on quite a few decisions) as this seems to be the whole point of it, why is Germany, a country fairly evenly matched with us, and one that is at the centre of the , apparent, shambles that is the Euro, how come they are so much more successful than us, over recent years?

im not sure they have been m"much more successful" in the past few years, they have a larger economy already for historic reasons as above. there's also cultural differences, such as a less confrontational owner/worker relationship. in the UK there is an unexplained productivity gap between what is expected to be output against what is, that puzzles the economist. personally i think its because we have a tendency to slack off, like posting on web forums for 5 minutes instead of working. you could probably write a couple of books on the small differences and still not fully explain the divergence of UK and Germany, its just one of those things (like why Argentina economy fell behind Europe in the early 20th century and what on earth has happened to Japans economy, vibrant but stagnant at the same time).

 

[lawros left foot]

You have obviously never worked in industry.A lot of our industry is still using machinery built in the 1930's and even older.Germany was smashed flat in 1945 so it's industrial
capacity was rebuilt F.O.C. by the Allies and is much more efficient and debt free.We are still paying off the cost of defeating the Nazis,whereas the reparations they had to make were minimal by comparison,for two major reasons.The Americans wanted a strong West Germany as a bulwark against the Soviets,and if the Germans were forced into major debt they feared a resurgence of extremism.

A lot of our industry using machinery from the thirties, are you sure?
I accept the point about post War Germany and the Marshall plan, but, if they have made such a success of the EU, why haven't we? Could it be, most of our Governments since we joined have been lukewarm at most.

 

[Two Professors]

Come and have a look at most metal bashing companies in the midlands and I think you will find plenty of kit from the industrial middle ages mixed in with newer stuff.Don't think it's down to Government,more a short term focus by company directors on maximising profits,minimising outlay.

I dare say there is one poster on here who will tell you their success is down to being the Master Race,but ignore him or laugh-most people do!

 

[Lincoln Imp]

You have obviously never worked in industry.A lot of our industry is still using machinery built in the 1930's and even older.Germany was smashed flat in 1945 so it's industrial
capacity was rebuilt F.O.C. by the Allies and is much more efficient and debt free.We are still paying off the cost of defeating the Nazis,whereas the reparations they had to make were minimal by comparison,for two major reasons.The Americans wanted a strong West Germany as a bulwark against the Soviets,and if the Germans were forced into major debt they feared a resurgence of extremism.

German industry raises investment capital in different ways to the UK, in a way that encourages long-termism. It spends huge amounts on research & development (the profits of BMW, for example, are currently being affected by a surge in research spending). Their education system encourages technical and practical skills more than ours does. They don't flog off their companies to multinationals and equity funds in the way we do. They have a voting system that encourages compromise. Their consumers have an aversion to personal debt which will be unfamiliar to many Britons - there is a famous statistic involving women's luxury clothing in the post war years. Sales of it collapsed at one stage, not because the economy was in trouble but because the spectacular growth rates of the 50s and 60s briefly trembled. (At the same time Harold Macmillan was telling us that we had never had it so good and, like every PM since, trying to engineer a consumer spending boom to encourage people to vote for him.)

All this is very different to what has applied in the UK where we tend to spend money we're not earning and, in the case of many people, blame others - foreign bureaucrats are perfect - for any problems that arise.

 

[Surf's Up]

I suspect there may well be a domino effect if we leave the EU. Scotland will vote strongly in favour of remain, a UK wide leave vote will stimulate a second independence referendum in Scotland which the SNP will win this time. An exit vote will also stimulate further referenda in other EU member states, perhaps even including Germany, and there will be a strong Nationalistic right wing swing across Europe with borders being re-instated leading to the eventual break-up of the EU as currently constituted. What will happen after then is anybody's guess.

 

[heathgate]

Why is there a default assumption that the leave/remain numbers in Scotland will be heavily in fav our of Remain?.. there is significant social discontent focussed on migration vs employment vs wage rates type issues, they are likely to vote as much on that as they will on the mighty evil Westminster question.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

This is a question for both sides.
I presume most people would agree that Germany is the largest economy in the EU, and we are the second? If so, how come we are not as successful as the Germans? We have both had recessions in recent years, possibly ours was worse, but Germany has put more money into propping up the Euro than us, and they also had the massive expense of re-unification only about twenty years ago, we had the windfall of North Sea oil in the fairly recent past,and, they have had more economic migrants than us, a huge strain on resources according to some.
If we all abide by the same EU rules, which, surely we should, (yes,I do realise that we have a veto on quite a few decisions) as this seems to be the whole point of it, why is Germany, a country fairly evenly matched with us, and one that is at the centre of the , apparent, shambles that is the Euro, how come they are so much more successful than us, over recent years?

If I had to choose one explanation it will be the mittelstand, the 100s of thousands of small to medium sized private/family owned businesses which dominate their economy and cover numerous sectors although are primarily manufacturing. They typically use local skilled labour, pay well and look after their staff. They are small and flexible so can change when the need arises eg the German company which manufactured the steel cables holding up the Olympic Stadium in Stratford was a former rope business. They are not as profit driven or faceless as the huge corporations which dominate the UK economy, consequently they pay and look after their staff and often take pride in, and contribute financially to, the local area, as they don't have shareholders to worry about. They also pay their corporation tax. And having a bolus of people with a decent amount of money in their pockets is only a good thing for the economy. When they spend, as the economy is dominated by the Mittelstand, chances are some money will stay local or within Germant .....and the cycle begins again. It's not rocket science; it's simple old school manufacturing values.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Why is there a default assumption that the leave/remain numbers in Scotland will be heavily in fav our of Remain?.. there is significant social discontent focussed on migration vs employment vs wage rates type issues, they are likely to vote as much on that as they will on the mighty evil Westminster question.

The polls say so.

If you are a Scot there is very little difference between being ruled from London, or ruled from Brussels.

 

[Albumen]

Not sure how to find out if it's true. It probably is. Vote leave.

 

[lawros left foot]

View attachment 75516

Not sure how to find out if it's true. It probably is. Vote leave.

Democracy in action

 

[heathgate]

The polls say so.

If you are a Scot there is very little difference between being ruled from London, or ruled from Brussels.

But in almost every way they rule themselves..... as we saw... 55% of them agreed it was the preferred way.

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[Chief Wiggum]

I found the following points on a Brexit site. Now I have no idea whether they are 'facts' or not, but any counter arguments would be helpful. Discuss.

'Jaguar Land Rover stops making its Defender in the UK because of EU laws on fuel emissions. It is now set to be built abroad outside the EU.

In 2007 the Peugeot factory in Ryton, Coventry closed down (2,300 job losses) and moved to Slovakia with the help of £78m EU funding.

Britain's remaining ferry service to Scandinavia (DFDS Harwich to Esbjerg) ended in 2014 after 140 years service because of an EU Directive.

'3000 police cars foreign made'. Police say they are powerless to offer contracts to British car factories because of EU procurement rules.

Before the UK entered the EEC/EU, unemployment stood at 2.6%. It is now 5.6% (1.85 million - May, 2015).

Norway, Iceland and Switzerland are thriving because they are not encumbered by Euro bailout costs and extortionate EU membership fees.

There were 25 EU Free Trade Agreements in force in 2012 while the Swiss (non-EU) had independently negotiated 26.

The EU's Landfill Directive has been responsible for some councils ending their weekly bin collections.

EU specified light bulbs cost 500% more than filament bulbs. Some people complain that the EU specified light bulbs produce a lesser quality of light and cfl's contain mercury, a poisonous neurotoxin and phosphors. Health issues affecting those that suffer from light sensitivity.

It's been suggested that VAT on domestic fuels should be cut from 5% to zero. But 5% is the minimum allowed under EU law.

Less than 10% of Britain's GDP represents trade with the EU yet Brussels regulations afflict 100% of the UK economy.

Britain will pay £100 million a year more to the European budget over the next five years. (Telegraph: 03/12/2014)

Article 42 3. gives the EU the power to begin the process of standardising the military forces of the member states via the EDA.

Britain receives just 49p of every £1 paid to the European Union. (Sunday Express & Business for Britain, 12/07/2015)

TTIP will undermine data privacy by making it easier for companies to gain access to individuals’ personal details for commercial purposes.

EU Commission will block public access to all documents related to TTIP negotiations for 30 years. (EU/US negotiator Ignacio Garcia Bercero)

TTIP will downgrade food safety rules (including restrictions on GMOs), regulations on the use of toxic chemicals and data protection laws.

TTIP will allow corporations to sue the UK under the Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) clause.

European crime gangs are operating here with impunity due to EU open borders. Gov't estimates there are 13k trafficking victims in the UK.

The UK may withdraw from the obligations of any (EU) treaty under Articles 56,65,66,67 of the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties.

The EU isn't in the top five issues people are most concerned about. But those five issues are affected by the EU - like immigration.

HoC library's 13% UK laws made in Brussels figure doesn't include EU reg's which are transposed into law without passing through parliament.

The House of Commons library say 13.3% of UK laws now come from Brussels. European Commissioner Viviane Reding says it's 70%.

Our future does not depend on our membership of the European Union, it rests on our abilities to progress in the world outside of it.

Net EU contributions together with the adverse impact on business here of EU regulations will cost the UK more than £20billion in 2015.

There's no economic benefit in the UK remaining in the EU. EU regulations cost our businesses alone over £9.4bn, according to the BIS.

There was NO 'free movement' for Brits to the EU (EEC) before we joined in '73. Yet we lived, studied, worked, holidayed and retired there.

The EU is NOT "Europe". It's 56% of Europe's countries, 68% of the continent's population and just 43% of its land mass.

UK membership of EU: "Perhaps surprisingly, it's virtually impossible to find hard proof of any net benefit" — Carsten Volkery, Der Spiegel

UK has LOWER GDP ppp per head than:

Australia
Canada
HK
Iceland
Norway
Singapore
Switzerland
Taiwan
USA

Countries THRIVE outside the EU!

Britain’s future outside is bright, while the ‪#‎EU‬ is anti-democratic, anti-growth, and holding Britain back | via E21 http://t.co/fuFrsSuDHs

EU commits €267.6m for Denmark, €129.6m Estonia, €284.6m Germany, €172.9m for Sweden to boost fisheries & aquaculture. Nothing for the UK.

Top importers into the EU, by proportion of total EU imports:

18% China
12% USA
11% Russia

None have Free Trade Agreements with the EU!

'Britain had regular manufacturing & service trade surpluses with the rest of W Europe before joining the EEC (EU) in 1973' — Lewis Abbott

Well over a third of EU citizens reaching the UK in the year to March 2015 (39%) had no job arranged prior to their arrival here. ONS

In the past four quarters the EU exported £84.935bn more goods to the UK than we did to it. The EU cannot afford to stop trading with us!

The 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th biggest economies can survive and prosper outside the EU. So can the 5th: the UK.

Switzerland, Canada, South Africa, Chile, Mexico and South Korea have free trade agreements with the EU. So would the UK when we leave it.

UK Net Contributions to the EU budget:

£11.3bn 2015 (OBR estimate)
£11.0bn 2014
£ 8.6bn 2013
£ 8.5bn 2012
£ 8.1bn 2011
£ 7.4bn 2010

Elected MEPs cannot initiate legislation, propose legislation or even repeal legislation. All that is done by the unelected EU Commission.

 

[Albumen]

View attachment 75516

Not sure how to find out if it's true. It probably is. Vote leave.

It's true. Lovely man. Vote for Farage.

 

[LlcoolJ]

Interesting sentiment you are expressing here, given that denying the vote to over 40s would include those who fought for this country in WW2 and a significant constituency who have never had a say in being in the EU.

I dare say if Farage mused publicly about denying (say) foreign born residents/citizens from this referendum you would be incandescent in self righteous indignation, and yet here is your own raw prejudice laid bare.

I bet you would describe yourself as an open minded liberal, but you are a long long way from that..........you are the very thing you despise.

Why are you so angry? I suppose it must be difficult dealing with those conflicting emotions as a socialist who supports Nigel Farage, but chill out and have a beer in the sunshine.

 

[heathgate]

The polls say so.

If you are a Scot there is very little difference between being ruled from London, or ruled from Brussels.

The polls do not show that at all...... does anyone on here actually look before posting their version of fact... all the recent polls in Scotland show fairly even leave vs remain... although in fact, if anything Leave nudges ahead on combined poll averages..... so I cannot see where your view is coming from.

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