[Politics] Brexit

[heathgate]

Democracy in action

Heavily voted for by mep's from countries with little or no maternity pay structures, whose citizens do get maternity pay when they work and live in the more enlightened EU nations...

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[drew]

I found the following points on a Brexit site. Now I have no idea whether they are 'facts' or not, but any counter arguments would be helpful. Discuss.

'Jaguar Land Rover stops making its Defender in the UK because of EU laws on fuel emissions. It is now set to be built abroad outside the EU.

In 2007 the Peugeot factory in Ryton, Coventry closed down (2,300 job losses) and moved to Slovakia with the help of £78m EU funding.

Britain's remaining ferry service to Scandinavia (DFDS Harwich to Esbjerg) ended in 2014 after 140 years service because of an EU Directive.

'3000 police cars foreign made'. Police say they are powerless to offer contracts to British car factories because of EU procurement rules.

Before the UK entered the EEC/EU, unemployment stood at 2.6%. It is now 5.6% (1.85 million - May, 2015).

Norway, Iceland and Switzerland are thriving because they are not encumbered by Euro bailout costs and extortionate EU membership fees.

There were 25 EU Free Trade Agreements in force in 2012 while the Swiss (non-EU) had independently negotiated 26.

The EU's Landfill Directive has been responsible for some councils ending their weekly bin collections.

EU specified light bulbs cost 500% more than filament bulbs. Some people complain that the EU specified light bulbs produce a lesser quality of light and cfl's contain mercury, a poisonous neurotoxin and phosphors. Health issues affecting those that suffer from light sensitivity.

It's been suggested that VAT on domestic fuels should be cut from 5% to zero. But 5% is the minimum allowed under EU law.

Less than 10% of Britain's GDP represents trade with the EU yet Brussels regulations afflict 100% of the UK economy.

Britain will pay £100 million a year more to the European budget over the next five years. (Telegraph: 03/12/2014)

Article 42 3. gives the EU the power to begin the process of standardising the military forces of the member states via the EDA.

Britain receives just 49p of every £1 paid to the European Union. (Sunday Express & Business for Britain, 12/07/2015)

TTIP will undermine data privacy by making it easier for companies to gain access to individuals’ personal details for commercial purposes.

EU Commission will block public access to all documents related to TTIP negotiations for 30 years. (EU/US negotiator Ignacio Garcia Bercero)

TTIP will downgrade food safety rules (including restrictions on GMOs), regulations on the use of toxic chemicals and data protection laws.

TTIP will allow corporations to sue the UK under the Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) clause.

European crime gangs are operating here with impunity due to EU open borders. Gov't estimates there are 13k trafficking victims in the UK.

The UK may withdraw from the obligations of any (EU) treaty under Articles 56,65,66,67 of the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties.

The EU isn't in the top five issues people are most concerned about. But those five issues are affected by the EU - like immigration.

HoC library's 13% UK laws made in Brussels figure doesn't include EU reg's which are transposed into law without passing through parliament.

The House of Commons library say 13.3% of UK laws now come from Brussels. European Commissioner Viviane Reding says it's 70%.

Our future does not depend on our membership of the European Union, it rests on our abilities to progress in the world outside of it.

Net EU contributions together with the adverse impact on business here of EU regulations will cost the UK more than £20billion in 2015.

There's no economic benefit in the UK remaining in the EU. EU regulations cost our businesses alone over £9.4bn, according to the BIS.

There was NO 'free movement' for Brits to the EU (EEC) before we joined in '73. Yet we lived, studied, worked, holidayed and retired there.

The EU is NOT "Europe". It's 56% of Europe's countries, 68% of the continent's population and just 43% of its land mass.

UK membership of EU: "Perhaps surprisingly, it's virtually impossible to find hard proof of any net benefit" — Carsten Volkery, Der Spiegel

UK has LOWER GDP ppp per head than:

Australia
Canada
HK
Iceland
Norway
Singapore
Switzerland
Taiwan
USA

Countries THRIVE outside the EU!

Britain’s future outside is bright, while the ‪#‎EU‬ is anti-democratic, anti-growth, and holding Britain back | via E21 http://t.co/fuFrsSuDHs

EU commits €267.6m for Denmark, €129.6m Estonia, €284.6m Germany, €172.9m for Sweden to boost fisheries & aquaculture. Nothing for the UK.

Top importers into the EU, by proportion of total EU imports:

18% China
12% USA
11% Russia

None have Free Trade Agreements with the EU!

'Britain had regular manufacturing & service trade surpluses with the rest of W Europe before joining the EEC (EU) in 1973' — Lewis Abbott

Well over a third of EU citizens reaching the UK in the year to March 2015 (39%) had no job arranged prior to their arrival here. ONS

In the past four quarters the EU exported £84.935bn more goods to the UK than we did to it. The EU cannot afford to stop trading with us!

The 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th biggest economies can survive and prosper outside the EU. So can the 5th: the UK.

Switzerland, Canada, South Africa, Chile, Mexico and South Korea have free trade agreements with the EU. So would the UK when we leave it.

UK Net Contributions to the EU budget:

£11.3bn 2015 (OBR estimate)
£11.0bn 2014
£ 8.6bn 2013
£ 8.5bn 2012
£ 8.1bn 2011
£ 7.4bn 2010

Elected MEPs cannot initiate legislation, propose legislation or even repeal legislation. All that is done by the unelected EU Commission.

You're for out then?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

You're for out then?

The person who originally wrote it certainly is.

As an aside the original author clearly doesn't know how the EU works given the bullshit in the final sentence; it's total nonsense.

 

[Jim in the West]

The polls do not show that at all...... does anyone on here actually look before posting their version of fact... all the recent polls in Scotland show fairly even leave vs remain... although in fact, if anything Leave nudges ahead on combined poll averages..... so I cannot see where your view is coming from.

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A You Gov poll in the FT shows that both Northern Ireland and Scotland are both strongly Europhile, with Remain voters over 25% greater than Leave voters.

 

[larus]

Oh dear, more bad news for the Remain scaremongers - "Pound jumps as UK factories roar back into life".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/08/pound-jumps-as-uk-factories-roar-back-into-life/

What? It must be lies? The UK will become a wasteland and we've already seen huge outflows of capital. Wail, wail. Everyone said that Brexit and the fear of Brexit was nearly as bad as the Four Horsemen.

Just goes to show we'll do fine outside of the EU, even if there's an initial short-term market reaction.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Heavily voted for by mep's from countries with little or no maternity pay structures, whose citizens do get maternity pay when they work and live in the more enlightened EU nations...

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At least you can see where the tweet was coming from, about the lack of control we actually have in this country in making our own decisions.

They have tried to twist what Farage has said again over the last few days, in the hope people get angry and swing some votes Remains way. It is also a great diversion tactic away from the terrible immigration figures that Cameron said he would reduce, and all the other real problems going on in the EU, which are rarely shown on our news here.

 

[Jim in the West]

I suspect there may well be a domino effect if we leave the EU. Scotland will vote strongly in favour of remain, a UK wide leave vote will stimulate a second independence referendum in Scotland which the SNP will win this time. An exit vote will also stimulate further referenda in other EU member states, perhaps even including Germany, and there will be a strong Nationalistic right wing swing across Europe with borders being re-instated leading to the eventual break-up of the EU as currently constituted. What will happen after then is anybody's guess.

These are some of the reasons I'm voting Remain. I don't much like the EU, but it is a hugely valuable barrier against Russian expansionism, the re-emergence of the far right in Europe, etc, etc. There are a whole host of other global risks out there, and a strong EU is vital for security and peace - not just in Europe, but further afield. Millions of people died in WW2 to create peace in Europe, and we're contemplating doing something which risks destabilising that peace. I wouldn't mind so much if the Brexit camp actually had a plan for what happens post-23rd June, but they don't.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I have reposted this for you, just in case anyone missed this.

Oh dear, more bad news for the Remain scaremongers - "Pound jumps as UK factories roar back into life".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/08/pound-jumps-as-uk-factories-roar-back-into-life/

What? It must be lies? The UK will become a wasteland and we've already seen huge outflows of capital. Wail, wail. Everyone said that Brexit and the fear of Brexit was nearly as bad as the Four Horsemen.

Just goes to show we'll do fine outside of the EU, even if there's an initial short-term market reaction.[/QUOTE]

 

[East Preston Gull]

I found the following points on a Brexit site. Now I have no idea whether they are 'facts' or not, but any counter arguments would be helpful. Discuss.

'Jaguar Land Rover stops making its Defender in the UK because of EU laws on fuel emissions. It is now set to be built abroad outside the EU.

In 2007 the Peugeot factory in Ryton, Coventry closed down (2,300 job losses) and moved to Slovakia with the help of £78m EU funding.

Britain's remaining ferry service to Scandinavia (DFDS Harwich to Esbjerg) ended in 2014 after 140 years service because of an EU Directive.

'3000 police cars foreign made'. Police say they are powerless to offer contracts to British car factories because of EU procurement rules.

Before the UK entered the EEC/EU, unemployment stood at 2.6%. It is now 5.6% (1.85 million - May, 2015).

Norway, Iceland and Switzerland are thriving because they are not encumbered by Euro bailout costs and extortionate EU membership fees.

There were 25 EU Free Trade Agreements in force in 2012 while the Swiss (non-EU) had independently negotiated 26.

The EU's Landfill Directive has been responsible for some councils ending their weekly bin collections.

EU specified light bulbs cost 500% more than filament bulbs. Some people complain that the EU specified light bulbs produce a lesser quality of light and cfl's contain mercury, a poisonous neurotoxin and phosphors. Health issues affecting those that suffer from light sensitivity.

It's been suggested that VAT on domestic fuels should be cut from 5% to zero. But 5% is the minimum allowed under EU law.

Less than 10% of Britain's GDP represents trade with the EU yet Brussels regulations afflict 100% of the UK economy.

Britain will pay £100 million a year more to the European budget over the next five years. (Telegraph: 03/12/2014)

Article 42 3. gives the EU the power to begin the process of standardising the military forces of the member states via the EDA.

Britain receives just 49p of every £1 paid to the European Union. (Sunday Express & Business for Britain, 12/07/2015)

TTIP will undermine data privacy by making it easier for companies to gain access to individuals’ personal details for commercial purposes.

EU Commission will block public access to all documents related to TTIP negotiations for 30 years. (EU/US negotiator Ignacio Garcia Bercero)

TTIP will downgrade food safety rules (including restrictions on GMOs), regulations on the use of toxic chemicals and data protection laws.

TTIP will allow corporations to sue the UK under the Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) clause.

European crime gangs are operating here with impunity due to EU open borders. Gov't estimates there are 13k trafficking victims in the UK.

The UK may withdraw from the obligations of any (EU) treaty under Articles 56,65,66,67 of the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties.

The EU isn't in the top five issues people are most concerned about. But those five issues are affected by the EU - like immigration.

HoC library's 13% UK laws made in Brussels figure doesn't include EU reg's which are transposed into law without passing through parliament.

The House of Commons library say 13.3% of UK laws now come from Brussels. European Commissioner Viviane Reding says it's 70%.

Our future does not depend on our membership of the European Union, it rests on our abilities to progress in the world outside of it.

Net EU contributions together with the adverse impact on business here of EU regulations will cost the UK more than £20billion in 2015.

There's no economic benefit in the UK remaining in the EU. EU regulations cost our businesses alone over £9.4bn, according to the BIS.

There was NO 'free movement' for Brits to the EU (EEC) before we joined in '73. Yet we lived, studied, worked, holidayed and retired there.

The EU is NOT "Europe". It's 56% of Europe's countries, 68% of the continent's population and just 43% of its land mass.

UK membership of EU: "Perhaps surprisingly, it's virtually impossible to find hard proof of any net benefit" — Carsten Volkery, Der Spiegel

UK has LOWER GDP ppp per head than:

Australia
Canada
HK
Iceland
Norway
Singapore
Switzerland
Taiwan
USA

Countries THRIVE outside the EU!

Britain’s future outside is bright, while the ‪#‎EU‬ is anti-democratic, anti-growth, and holding Britain back | via E21 http://t.co/fuFrsSuDHs

EU commits €267.6m for Denmark, €129.6m Estonia, €284.6m Germany, €172.9m for Sweden to boost fisheries & aquaculture. Nothing for the UK.

Top importers into the EU, by proportion of total EU imports:

18% China
12% USA
11% Russia

None have Free Trade Agreements with the EU!

'Britain had regular manufacturing & service trade surpluses with the rest of W Europe before joining the EEC (EU) in 1973' — Lewis Abbott

Well over a third of EU citizens reaching the UK in the year to March 2015 (39%) had no job arranged prior to their arrival here. ONS

In the past four quarters the EU exported £84.935bn more goods to the UK than we did to it. The EU cannot afford to stop trading with us!

The 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th and 13th biggest economies can survive and prosper outside the EU. So can the 5th: the UK.

Switzerland, Canada, South Africa, Chile, Mexico and South Korea have free trade agreements with the EU. So would the UK when we leave it.

UK Net Contributions to the EU budget:

£11.3bn 2015 (OBR estimate)
£11.0bn 2014
£ 8.6bn 2013
£ 8.5bn 2012
£ 8.1bn 2011
£ 7.4bn 2010

Elected MEPs cannot initiate legislation, propose legislation or even repeal legislation. All that is done by the unelected EU Commission.

This. Absolutely bloody this. The EU is killing us. Game over

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[Albumen]

Why? You want LESS maternity pay?

I'm just highlighting some of the terrible things EU do and the fine work Mr Farage does as a paid member of the public sector.

Or maybe I'm not. Maybe I'm highlighting how the EU has fought for equality and dinosaurs like Farage are f_cking idiots.

 

[sten_super]

<snip>

As usual, from both sides, it looks a mixture of truth, half-truth and falsehoods. I'm happy to pick up a few that I know specifics about;

'3000 police cars foreign made'. Police say they are powerless to offer contracts to British car factories because of EU procurement rules.

Yes, public sector organisations are not (supposed to) be able to favour domestic firms over others from within the single market. Whether this is a good thing (because it encourages competition and efficiency) or a bad thing (does not allow us to support British jobs) probably depends upon your political leanings. All I would say is that inevitably at some level favouring British cars would likely lead to spending more money on the cars than might otherwise be the case, and you then open yourself up to criticism for wasting public money.

Before the UK entered the EEC/EU, unemployment stood at 2.6%. It is now 5.6% (1.85 million - May, 2015).

It depends a bit upon which measure you use as to which specific rate you get, but it's broadly true that the unemployment rate was lower when we joined than it is now. There's no evidence of causality, however, and it rose much higher well before immigration was a major issue in the way it is now.

Norway, Iceland and Switzerland are thriving because they are not encumbered by Euro bailout costs and extortionate EU membership fees.

The UK is not liable for Eurozone bailout costs - it is explicitly excluded because it is not in the Eurozone. Norway, Iceland and Switzerland all have to pay contributions to the EU in exchange for the access that they do have, although they are lower per capita than the UK's current contribution.

The EU's Landfill Directive has been responsible for some councils ending their weekly bin collections.

My understanding of the landfill directive is that it substantially increases costs for large amounts of landfill (or it may ban it altogether). It seems to me that limiting landfill is a good, not a bad, thing. It's also encouraged councils to make recycling much easier (and therefore more prevalent) - so this could be rephrashed as "The EU's Landfill Directive has been responsible for some councils improving their recycling bin collections".

It's been suggested that VAT on domestic fuels should be cut from 5% to zero. But 5% is the minimum allowed under EU law.

Yes, Member States aren't allowed to add new items to the exemptions list without approval of the Commission.

Britain will pay £100 million a year more to the European budget over the next five years. (Telegraph: 03/12/2014)
Britain receives just 49p of every £1 paid to the European Union. (Sunday Express & Business for Britain, 12/07/2015)

Yes, we get back less from the Commission than we contribute. We are the second biggest economy in the EU, and one of the most productive and therefore wealthy. I don't therefore see this redistribution as a particular problem - but I guess whether you do or not again reflects your underlying politics.

European crime gangs are operating here with impunity due to EU open borders. Gov't estimates there are 13k trafficking victims in the UK.

We are not in Schengen - there are passport controls on our border and criminals can (and are) stopped from coming here. Criminals that are prosecuted here can be sent back to their native Member State under existing laws, but this is not enforced (despite David Cameron repeatedly stating recently that it happens).

Net EU contributions together with the adverse impact on business here of EU regulations will cost the UK more than £20billion in 2015.
There's no economic benefit in the UK remaining in the EU. EU regulations cost our businesses alone over £9.4bn, according to the BIS.

The regulations issue is complex. Some of the EU regulations we would have without the EU.
The figures that you have mentioned are the gross costs, before the gross benefits are included. BIS estimates from 2014 put the costs of the 100 most costly EU regulations at £33.3bn, against a benefit of £58.6bn. Some of the most costly regulations are the renewable energy strategy (which commits the UK to producing a certain % of it's energy from renewable sources), the CRD IV which stipulates the amount of capital that banks are required to hold, and the Working Time Directive, which limits the total number of hours that workers can do in a week. Again, it boils down to individual politics, but none of those in and of themselves look like bad things to me.

I've already gone on far longer than I originally intended, but I'd say one final thing in closing, addressing the final points that are raised. Can the UK survive outside the EU? Sure it can. Will there be economic costs to leaving, in terms of wages and jobs? Yes, there almost certainly will be, at least in the short term. The extent depends upon what out looks like, and which options the government of the day (now and in the future) choose to pursue. Are there democratic benefits to leaving? In my opinion, yes. Are there global and national political and stability risks that are increased if we leave? Yes, I think so. The balance between the benefits and the costs comes down to how an individual weighs them.

 

[Two Professors]

The person who originally wrote it certainly is.

As an aside the original author clearly doesn't know how the EU works given the bullshit in the final sentence; it's total nonsense.

Talking nonsense again,more waffle with no proof

EU seem to disagree with you.

 

[Two Professors]

A You Gov poll in the FT shows that both Northern Ireland and Scotland are both strongly Europhile, with Remain voters over 25% greater than Leave voters.

Does anybody actually believe anything from You Gov anymore?

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

The polls do not show that at all...... does anyone on here actually look before posting their version of fact... all the recent polls in Scotland show fairly even leave vs remain... although in fact, if anything Leave nudges ahead on combined poll averages..... so I cannot see where your view is coming from.

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http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/06/britain-s-eu-referendum

Click on the Scotland button and see.


To quote you - "does anyone on here actually look before posting their version of fact" ?

 

[heathgate]

Unprecedented and repeated foreign intervention, the illegal use of government resources, outlandish exaggerations, even bare-faced lies - Cameron's conduct means this referendum will settle nothing, and the result could even face a legal challenge.

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[JC Footy Genius]

These are some of the reasons I'm voting Remain. I don't much like the EU, but it is a hugely valuable barrier against Russian expansionism, the re-emergence of the far right in Europe, etc, etc. There are a whole host of other global risks out there, and a strong EU is vital for security and peace - not just in Europe, but further afield. Millions of people died in WW2 to create peace in Europe, and we're contemplating doing something which risks destabilising that peace. I wouldn't mind so much if the Brexit camp actually had a plan for what happens post-23rd June, but they don't.

Now now don't be shy, you love the EU.

The EU can only posture on the wider European political stage because of NATO. The ultimate insurance policy.

And is that posturing adding to security? It can be argued the EU were at least partly responsible for inflaming the Ukraine crisis as they made overtures encouraging Ukraine's future EU membership which led to a predictably unpleasant response from Putin.

Extremism is on the rise in many places across Europe, the EU is part of the problem not the solution. The EU's drive for ever closer Union is causing political instability and economic instability (Eurozone crisis).

Using the war dead to try and substantiate your misguided transparent Remain camp agenda ... really?

 

[heathgate]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/06/britain-s-eu-referendum

Click on the Scotland button and see.


To quote you - "does anyone on here actually look before posting their version of fact" ?

I see it yes.... odd that it conflicts with the polls I was given..... fair do's

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[beorhthelm]

The person who originally wrote it certainly is.

As an aside the original author clearly doesn't know how the EU works given the bullshit in the final sentence; it's total nonsense.

is it? sounds about right, if not 100% accurate. EU Commission proposes all legislation, EU Parliament discusses and drafts the wording of the legislation, EU Council reviews and agrees or passes back to Parliament to talk about some more, with further input from the Commission. this is dressed up as "co-decision" but looks like the Council has final approval, with the Commission doing the initial proposal stage.

oh look, beaten to it. do remainers really understand what they want to remain in?

 

[beorhthelm]

The UK is not liable for Eurozone bailout costs - it is explicitly excluded because it is not in the Eurozone.

while technically correct on liability, there is a EU based fund that is used for the bailouts, which we pay into.

and on procurement rules, its our own bloody fault we insist on playing by the rules. other nations either bend them or work with them to specify criteria weighting their local firms favorably, lifting technical requirements from data sheets or arranging deals on financing and feeding those into the requirements.

 

[Eeyore]

Does anybody actually believe anything from You Gov anymore?

Historically the most accurate polls are the telephone ones. If all other polls had been excluded from the last election then pollsters would have been close to the result.

I'm pretty sure that 'remain' is ahead. Even just by talking to folk I've have worked with or socialise with there seems to be about a 60/40 split.

Strangely, though, I'd say the NSC poll is a good indicator. There's a splendid cross section of society here.