[Politics] Brexit

[Wrong-Direction]

If we leave it won't change how many people come over here, people will still come, we'll still have freedom of movement, also workers rights will be scrapped, stop believing in people as corrupt as their opposition

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[melias shoes]

3 out. Plus just about everyone I know is out.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

If we leave it won't change how many people come over here, people will still come, we'll still have freedom of movement, also workers rights will be scrapped, stop believing in people as corrupt as their opposition

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How do you know this?

 

[Wrong-Direction]

How do you know this?

How do you not know this?


There you go, none of us know f*** all, all I know is the poor will carry on being screwed into oblivion whatever happens, everyone's missing the point, we need to build more houses, schools hospitals etc, this whole farce everyone's got caught up in is a joke cover up for the real issues we need to address.

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[cunning fergus]

So much total nonsense on this thread, it's depressing.

Although very different in some ways I see the Leave campaign as having lots of similarities to the Scottish independence one. Lots of nice fluffy ideas and rhetoric, zero economic substance to back them up. It's pie in the sky politics at it's worst as the people pushing these ideas won't be affected personally at all.

Amusing analogy;

Maybe nobody over 40 should be able to vote on this as it's the younger generations whose lives will be influenced by it the most (and mostly old feckers who are voting on idealism rather than facts, interestingly and conversely from the Scottish vote).

Interesting sentiment you are expressing here, given that denying the vote to over 40s would include those who fought for this country in WW2 and a significant constituency who have never had a say in being in the EU.

I dare say if Farage mused publicly about denying (say) foreign born residents/citizens from this referendum you would be incandescent in self righteous indignation, and yet here is your own raw prejudice laid bare.

I bet you would describe yourself as an open minded liberal, but you are a long long way from that..........you are the very thing you despise.

 

[dangull]

I have noticed on oddschecker that the remains were 1/6 not too long ago, now 1/2. That's despite NSC poll slowly favouring the united states of Europe.

 

[Hampster Gull]

That's a matter of opinion. Appreciate the effort in response nonetheless. Fantastic effort.

of course it s a matter of opinion, just li,e yours was. This is the same exchange we had before and you get a but dull if this is ground houg day

 

[Hampster Gull]

All anyone can say to that is tat the EU is not rotten, comparing it to Fifa is like apples to oranges.

Europe is not 'on the brink' but has actually returned to growth.

Eastern Europe and Hungary doesn't want refugees. Okay.

Poland is in a constitutional mess because the current government refuses to swear in judges appointed by the previous government. Then the constitutional court declared two laws from the Polish government unconstitutional. One required all judgement to have a two-thirds majority, rather than a simple majority, and increased the number of judges required to be present to pass a ruling. The Polish government however refused to publish the ruling made by the court, because "That the tribunal had not operated according to the dictates of the new law that it then found unconstitutional."http://www.vox.com/2016/6/1/11823742/poland-constitutional-crisis So it's a big mess and the Polish government is trampling on judicial sovereignty. The EU is putting pressure on Poland to stop the democratic backsliding. This is a good thing. I don't see how this can be a bad thing. The EU will always make democracy in Europe it's business. It's a good thing that Poland has a final recourse to undemocratic behaviour. Even if it is just moral pressure.

Scandinavian countries overwhelmed? Sweden has perhaps bitten off more than it can chew but they're not about to collapse. Denmark has taken a very different line, for example.

France is a perpetual mess but it's labour reforms are being pushed through. This is a good thing. Marie Le Pen soaring is a bad thing. She may get to the run-off but will very likely lose the presidential election.

Greece f**ked. Yes, but the new bail-out agreement is nearing completion so the worst is behind Greece.

Migrant crisis yes still bad. But at least there is a deal in place to divert the flow back to Turkey.

Schengen area still being enjoyed by 500 million people.

Unaccountable elites. Perhaps to a degree but if people simply paid attention they would be far more accountable. For a start by electing MEPs who do their jobs, not do nothing and collect their salaries while railing against the EU. See Ukip.

Europe will collapse without our money - no it won't.

All in all, some big problems but nothing insurmountable and nothing which justifies economic and political seppuku.

Great post

 

[Hampster Gull]

Interesting sentiment you are expressing here, given that denying the vote to over 40s would include those who fought for this country in WW2 and a significant constituency who have never had a say in being in the EU.

I dare say if Farage mused publicly about denying (say) foreign born residents/citizens from this referendum you would be incandescent in self righteous indignation, and yet here is your own raw prejudice laid bare.

I bet you would describe yourself as an open minded liberal, but you are a long long way from that..........you are the very thing you despise.

 

[Hampster Gull]

3 out. Plus just about everyone I know is out.

That makes 4? So you should be very relaxed that a "minority" have a different view

 

[JC Footy Genius]

How do you not know this?


There you go, none of us know f*** all, all I know is the poor will carry on being screwed into oblivion whatever happens, everyone's missing the point, we need to build more houses, schools hospitals etc, this whole farce everyone's got caught up in is a joke cover up for the real issues we need to address.

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I agree none of us truly know but you were stating things as if they were a certainty.

We do need lots more houses just to clear the backlog let alone housing the hundreds of thousands who come here year after year. Simlar issue with schools and hospitals. You may be right it may not change but this is our last chance to try and make the politicians take note of our concerns, the other option is just running up the white flag.

 

[Hampster Gull]

And? How will the UK on its own change this? If we are outside europe how will we help the youth in europe get jobs? Also, if our government is do weak it can not help change the EU why do we think they can do any better in the UK?

I think the idea is we will be fine becuase we can trade with ourselves and others once they've negotiated their trade deals. But its ok becuase we are english and we dont need others. Scotland can do one. Those strange people on the continent can do one. We will be fine, the world is as it was 100 years ago.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

I agree none of us truly know but you were stating things as if they were a certainty.

We do need lots more houses just to clear the backlog let alone housing the hundreds of thousands who come here year after year. Simlar issue with schools and hospitals. You may be right it may not change but this is our last chance to try and make the politicians take note of our concerns, the other option is just running up the white flag.

I hear ya but I just don't trust our government to change anything, call me when the revolution begins

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[cunning fergus]

Good points. This country has never shirked shared challenges before and shouldn't now.

No sane person could read that and think it's a positive narrative for remain.

It merely confirms that the faults that many on this thread assert about the EU exists. Those on the remain side who suggest the EU is democratic, not in the thrall of global capitalism and prioritises social justice are evidently wrong.

The only positive the remain side can project from this letter is that it MAY be able to change.

This attitude is madness, a vote for in will be taken as an endorsement of the status quo.......no more no less.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I hear ya but I just don't trust our government to change anything, call me when the revolution begins

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Will do, are you available next year?

 

[Hampster Gull]

You may have missed the piece by Yanis Varoufakis (former Finance Minister, and leader of Syriza) in the Guardian on Saturday....a hero for many Greeks fighting against austerity. He is desperate for the UK to Remain:

Dear Britain,
Last year I tried, and failed, to convince the EU top brass to behave humanely toward my long-suffering country. Now, I am writing to you with an odd plea: that you stay in this same EU – yes, the one that crushed our Athens spring and has been behaving abominably ever since. Some will deploy tabloid logic to explain my plea (“Varoufakis wants the UK to stay in to pay for Greece’s bailouts”). Others will accuse me of abandoning the fight for restoring democracy. Yet I trust that your Pythonesque appreciation of paradox will pierce through the seeming contradiction. The reason I want you to stay in is that voting to leave will not get you “out”. Rather than escaping the EU, Brexit will keep you tied to a Europe that is nastier, sadder and increasingly dangerous to itself, to you, indeed to the rest of the planet.

The masters of the City will never allow a new Boris Johnson government to even think of leaving the EU’s single market, despite Michael Gove’s musings. Which means that all the gadgets sold in your shops will have to abide by standards made in Brussels, your environmental protection rules will be drawn up in Brussels, and market regulation will be (yes you guessed it) determined in Brussels. So, even after Brexit, the majority of your laws will be written in the same dreary Brussels corridors as now, except you will have no say in their shaping. With your democracy as truncated as it is now, you will remain stuck, albeit less powerful, in a Europe whose fragmentation Brexit will accelerate. The EU is undoubtedly bureaucratic, opaque and contemptuous of the parliamentarianism that you and I cherish. You may, therefore, conclude that speeding up the EU’s fragmentation is not such a bad idea. Think again! Will its disintegration cause progressive democrats to rise up across Europe, empower their parliaments, usher in the forces of light and hope, and foster harmonious cooperation on the continent? Not likely.

The EU’s fragmentation will divide the continent in at least two parts, the major fault line running down the Rhine and across the Alps. In the north east, deflation will rule, with millions of working poor Germans, Poles and so on becoming unemployed. In the Latin part, the order of the day will be inflation with unemployment. Only political monsters will crawl out of this fault line, spreading xenophobic misanthropy everywhere and ensuring, through competitive devaluations, that you will also be drawn into the ensuing vortex.

This is why I am pleading with you to stay in our terrible EU. Europe’s democrats need you. And you need us. Together we have a chance of reviving democratic sovereignty across Europe. It won’t be easy. But it is worth a try. When I was student, a close friend who hated parties nevertheless never missed one just so that he would have something to bitch about the day after. Please do not be like him. Please stay in the EU with enthusiasm for our common cause: to take arms against a sea of troubles, and, by opposing, end them.

Great post

 

[Bladders]

Great post

You're impressed with a cut & paste of a Greek chap telling us the EU is shit.

Classic Gold

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

I think the idea is we will be fine becuase we can trade with ourselves and others once they've negotiated their trade deals. But its ok becuase we are english and we dont need others. Scotland can do one. Those strange people on the continent can do one. We will be fine, the world is as it was 100 years ago.

thriving English ports,ships laden with goods from all around the world,a strong powerful Great Britain......YES PLEASE

 

[Soulman]

You're impressed with a cut & paste of a Greek chap telling us the EU is shit.

Classic Gold

I must admit this Greek fellow makes a good case for the UK getting out, yet it is lorded as thumbs up for Remain.....priceless

 

[Jim in the West]

You're impressed with a cut & paste of a Greek chap telling us the EU is shit.

Classic Gold

Just trying to balance the view of a previous poster. Look, we're all united in our love of BHA......this debate obviously transcends that love, but we should at least be able to be civil to each other. Unfortunately we're just descending to the level of Farage, Gove and some of the Remainers. It's strangely addictive, but pretty disappointing nonetheless.