[Politics] Brexit

[BigGully]

My old man is someone who we are told doesn't exist I.e. He has changed his mind re leave and now says this is going to crap. He gone as far as apologising to me and my sister. Time will tell whether it is worse than the 90s. Fingers crossed it isn't.

I can just imaigine your poor old man in his late 60's 70's or 80's dreading you coming round again for Sunday lunch, you just turn up and moan and moan and moan and moan, your mums not stupid she has said to dad about 10.30am 'just tell him you have changed your mind and lets not have another Sunday like the last one and the one before that and dont let on that his sister voted UKIP anyway' ...................

 

[Buzzer]

This is a very interesting Twitter thread for all the Europhiles to digest. It basically sums up Greece's current state (which is very bad).

https://twitter.com/GreekAnalyst/status/903233221156118529

In a nutshell:

private sector bank deposits at an all-time low
Disposable income per capita almost halved since 2010
More than half the country now unable to provide emergency needs
Greek institutions as weak or dysfunctional as ever
Tax refunds due to be paid by government near record levels
Tax receipts have plummeted,
tax arrears at record levels
Consequently most Greek banks are now at risk
Greek private sector arrears to banks and the state stand at 130% of GDP. Excluding Cyprus, the next nearest in the EU is Ireland on 20%

..and Greek debt continues to rise...
...Stock of GR govt arrears & unprocessed claims has returned to mid-2015 level, despite ESM financing of €3.5bn for arrears clearance. (IMF)


Syriza, the left-wing government bizarrely refuses to cut expenditure but seeks to increase taxes despite the clear evidence that no-one has any money to pay them (94% of its policy mix is tax and 6% on austerity measures).

Now that's what I call a timebomb.

 

[5ways]

And what about the leavers for whom immigration played no part in their decision? What about those that wanted to leave because of the corruption, mismanagement, greed and treatment of those countries daring to confront Brussels 'leadership'? I know for a fact that there is at least one of them, and likely many more.

Frankly I believe that is a minority view among leavers. It was all about immigration.

 

[Berty23]

Shirley any true 'class warrior' would have voted for Brexit to give the establishment/ rich elites a kicking and hope to cause all this division rather than meekly do as they are told sticking with the status quo.

Brexit gives our ruling classes more power. It removes the checks and balances. But otherwise good point.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

You haven't been reading the many heartfelt contributions from your fellow gloomsters then. I've lost count of the number of stories about their parents, other relatives, friends, supposedly repenting their sin of voting differently to them and now see the light.

Thing is I don't know of anyone who has regretted the decision to leave. I often wonder if some people just make it up to try and add some weight to the argument.

 

[Albumen]

Frankly I believe that is a minority view among leavers. It was all about immigration.

And xenophobia. I'd imagine about 5-10% had an argument.

 

[Berty23]

I can just imaigine your poor old man in his late 60's 70's or 80's dreading you coming round again for Sunday lunch, you just turn up and moan and moan and moan and moan, your mums not stupid she has said to dad about 10.30am 'just tell him you have changed your mind and lets not have another Sunday like the last one and the one before that and dont let on that his sister voted UKIP anyway' ...................

He is grand ta. (Early 70s). In fact he came and helped me with my hospital trip last week as I have busy my ankle. We don't talk about Brexit anymore - it was banned as a topic as it made life easier. His partner still likes a rant about immigrants (brown ones) which she somehow thinks is relevant to Brexit debate but even dad shuts her down on those now (nothing racist about leave though)

My sister still rarely speaks to dad despite his apology. She is a proper Tory girl and even she hated the whole Idea.

Re points about europhiles - I don't love Europe. I simply think we are better off in the tent pissing out. So many problems with it but fewer IN than out IMHO. I hope I am wrong but more and more evidence is suggesting I won't be. Time will tell.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Thing is I don't know of anyone who has regretted the decision to leave. I often wonder if some people just make it up to try and add some weight to the argument.

It is a bit of a coincidence that the most vociferous Remainers have all these examples. I think [MENTION=5101]BigGully[/MENTION] might be onto something.

 

[Jim D]

Frankly I believe that is a minority view among leavers. It was all about immigration.

Excellent - you have all the names and preferences then?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Brexit gives our ruling classes more power. It removes the checks and balances. But otherwise good point.

The ruling classes/elites/establishment lined up behind Remain .. they are doing very well at the moment, so why rock the boat.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

It's quite entertaining now watching our hapless negotiators bumbling along to 'no deal'.

 

[5ways]

Excellent - you have all the names and preferences then?

http://www.britishelectionstudy.com...ow-to-vote-in-the-eu-referendum/#.WFJ0t7KLSUl

 

[JC Footy Genius]

http://www.britishelectionstudy.com...ow-to-vote-in-the-eu-referendum/#.WFJ0t7KLSUl

'These results show that while the single largest word that leavers say is “immigration”, they were actually more likely to mention sovereignty related issues overall.'

 

[beorhthelm]

Frankly I believe that is a minority view among leavers. It was all about immigration.

sadly true. though what did the remain campaign do to calm fears, reserve opinions on this? nothing.

Brexit gives our ruling classes more power. It removes the checks and balances. But otherwise good point.

it may have escaped your attention, but our checks and balances have been doing ok. of the many nations across europe we have one the soundest systems, with the rule of law and judiciary keeping a good check on government. its not like we've had dictatorship within living memory, or have endemic corruption, local disregard for law like many countries suffer from.

 

[5ways]

'These results show that while the single largest word that leavers say is “immigration”, they were actually more likely to mention sovereignty related issues overall.'

Sovereign of foreigners speaking Polish on the bus

 

[wellquickwoody]

No I'm not confused. His past Euro scepticism and past voting record is well known. Personally I always thought his 7/10 was a reasonably honest assessment on The EU in 2016 too during a campaign in which he was conspicuous by absence, but that's all irrelevant now. He's the biggest winner of Brexit, because if it hadn't happened he wouldn't be around now and in the ascendancy and I know from talking to some how delighted Momentum activists are in hindsight with people such as yourself who voted for Brexit and the slow implosion of The Conservative Party as well as the new order we're now in.

My view is Brexit was a political revolution as much as anything else and centrism and the centre ground of old are now dead. Tory moderates like that nice Mr Camercon, Nick Clegg, 2nd referendums, neo-liberalism - they're so 22nd June 2016. We are where we are as a country - going nowhere fast - and the opinion polls back this up - right v left and total polarisation and division that's simmering into a generational and hopefully class war too.

The current stance of the Government on Brexit is not working and won't achieve anything remotely like was promised last year. We're heading for no deal, which I know for some on the Brexit at any cost side will be a great success, but for those of us who have to exist in the real world it will be dire - as Mrs May said herself once when, in a rare moment of madness, she was being honest.

Once it's all failed though and this wretched lot are out, Corbyn and Labour pick up the pieces and reality and pragmatism of the situation kick-in and I would suggest it will be a far softer Brexit than the Redwoood/Rees-Mogg doctrine had envisaged. Perhaps Prime Minister Corbyn will call it a deep and special partnership.

You actually hope for class war?

 

[5ways]

sadly true. though what did the remain campaign do to calm fears, reserve opinions on this? nothing.



it may have escaped your attention, but our checks and balances have been doing ok. of the many nations across europe we have one the soundest systems, with the rule of law and judiciary keeping a good check on government. its not like we've had dictatorship within living memory, or have endemic corruption, local disregard for law like many countries suffer from.

Not much the Remain camp could do really. Blair should have not allowed free movement from Eastern Europe in 2004. Immigration from outside EU is as high as from within EU and successive govts did not stop it. The economics were correct, I think, but political miscalculation. But hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Well it was bad. Houses repossessed all over the place, no work, the building industry in tatters over night. What I'm saying is all these doom and gloom predictions about leaving the EU, will never be as bad as the 90s.

Have you even heard of the 70's?

 

[Jim D]

http://www.britishelectionstudy.com...ow-to-vote-in-the-eu-referendum/#.WFJ0t7KLSUl

This article shows that 'Sovereignty/EU Bureaucracy' is the highest scorer and above immigration. I believe this would include such things as EU corruption.

 

[5ways]

This article shows that 'Sovereignty/EU Bureaucracy' is the highest scorer and above immigration. I believe this would include such things as EU corruption.

What EU corruption?