[Politics] Brexit

[ManOfSussex]

Replying to my post: As far as I can see the problem with moving forward with Brexit is that we can't see what it is that the EU is asking for. Their demands are completely random, with no itemisation and no suggestions on what we would receive as a result of settlement. And yet they expect us to agree to it. Would you, for example, pay someone £100 for 'what's in my pocket'?

That depends. Is that the easiest free trade deal in history in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?

Never mind the financial settlements though, we haven't even agreed citizens rights and the Northern Ireland issue yet. Throw the German elections and Catalonia distractions into the mix and this is drifting along to absolutely nowhere at present. Not to mention the distinct possibility of a new PM here at some point over the next few months as well. It's a mess and we don't have much time left.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

"Don't usually" implies that they sometimes do so my point still stands, thankyou. You'll have to point me in the direction of a local or general election where voter intelligence has been scrutinised to the same level as Brexit.

One of my favourite quotes from the referendum, immediately behind the woman from Yorkshire who said "I think I voted Labour in that referendum thing but I'm not sure", came from IDS: "The great thing about the referendum was the number of people from the council estates who voted."

You have to be a senior Conservative politician to get away with that sort of language but his meaning was clear.

 

[Jim D]

Interesting point, one that many on here share. But for sure, 100% we are paying an exit bill, and for sure it will be large. And it's becoming more and more clear that we are not in the driving seat in this negotiations despite the bluster in the early days and if we are honest the tories, the Labour Party and the country are all divided on what the next step is best let along the end state. Shocking that the tories have done this to the country, and they are suffering as a consequence

What a load of complete nonsense. The exit bill doesn't need to be any larger than agreed and I doubt that will be very large at all once we really start talking about the reasons. As for who's in the driving seat, we don't know as we haven't discussed anything meaningful. And don't forget that it wasn't just the Tories that voted for Brexit.

 

[Jim D]

That depends. Is that the easiest free trade deal in history in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?

Never mind the financial settlements though, we haven't even agreed citizens rights and the Northern Ireland issue yet. Throw the German elections and Catalonia distractions into the mix and this is drifting along to absolutely nowhere at present. Not to mention the distinct possibility of a new PM here at some point over the next few months as well. It's a mess and we don't have much time left.

I think that 'citizen's rights' are easily agreed as long as the ECJ has no involvement in UK courts but, for some strange reason, the EU wants to involve itself with UK law. Would they expect to have the same oversight of EU citizens in the US or Russia? As for NI, how can we reach agreement when we aren't allowed to discuss the future trade arrangements? It seems to me that the EU is expecting us to agree to pay lots of money for 'something in their pocket', and I hope we've already agreed that isn't a good deal for us.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I think that 'citizen's rights' are easily agreed as long as the ECJ has no involvement in UK courts but, for some strange reason, the EU wants to involve itself with UK law. Would they expect to have the same oversight of EU citizens in the US or Russia? As for NI, how can we reach agreement when we aren't allowed to discuss the future trade arrangements? It seems to me that the EU is expecting us to agree to pay lots of money for 'something in their pocket', and I hope we've already agreed that isn't a good deal for us.

Personally I wouldn't go as far as to expect the current shower in charge to actually know the difference between a bad deal or a good deal or whether a particular bad deal scenario is better than a no deal. It is very confusing though - No deal is better than a bad deal but there has to be a deal all along? Or is there a bespoke, off the shelf bad deal as well as a bespoke, off the shelf good deal or a deep and special bad partnership as well, or is that just no deal or would an Albanian style deal be a good deal but a Swiss one a bad deal?........it's very difficult to keep up with the narrative in a fluid situation that's gone somewhat flat of late.

Ultimately whatever keeps the Euro sceptics of The Conservative & Unionist Party happy though, that's what most important and we're all in it together after-all.

 

[melias shoes]

There was me thinking it was completely the other way round. The EU has a clear process yet our government are stalling and fannying about like anyone's business because they don't actually know how to make it work (mostly because it can't).

Thinking and knowing are completely different. You may think it's the other way round but if you worked in my line of work you'd see it differently. Trust me.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Unfortunately older people and the less well educated managed to tip it in there favour. .

Not quite sure if the 'less well educated' might be somewhat better at spelling/basic grammar.

Their, not there.

 

[melias shoes]

Why is it character assassination to quote research which shows that leave voters are typically less educationally qualified and older? Is it unfair to say that the Sun is aimed at less well educated people, and that the Mail and Express at older people? Those three newspapers backed Brexit to the hilt and stoked their readers fears.

I didn't need a newspaper to tell me which way to vote. Besides being a leaver I'm far to Thick to be able to read anyway..

 

[pastafarian]

Personally I'm surprised, because I can clearly recall Owen Patterson saying on Sky News there would be a deal because German industry would demand one.

Im surprised as well. M.Barnier too has said he will negotiate and conclude a free trade agreement with us that it will be free and fair.
Barnier must be talking bollocks as well then and be completely untrustworthy. Cant we get the EU to listen to that German Lang bloke and appoint another chief negotiator instead that knows what he is doing?

 

[pastafarian]

And don't forget that it wasn't just the Tories that voted for Brexit.

Impossible for some to equate.
There are some on here who are driven solely by their hatred of the Tories, this hostility tends to blind reasoned judgement and cloud the reality that the vote covered all political persuasions.
You can see it as a recurring theme in many of their posts. Its tedious but seems to make them happy.

 

[GT49er]

Why is it character assassination to quote research which shows that leave voters are typically less educationally qualified and older? Is it unfair to say that the Sun is aimed at less well educated people, and that the Mail and Express at older people? Those three newspapers backed Brexit to the hilt and stoked their readers fears.

Circulation of The Sun in 2016 (approx.) - 1.8M; The Mail, 1.6M, The Express 400,000; Total:- 3.8M.
You make your point so well, it's a shame it isn't supported by the facts.........

The other 13 million plus who voted Leave must have worked it out for themselves.

 

[melias shoes]

Impossible for some to equate.
There are some on here who are driven solely by their hatred of the Tories, this hostility tends to blind reasoned judgement and cloud the reality that the vote covered all political persuasions.
You can see it as a recurring theme in many of their posts. Its tedious but seems to make them happy.

Were supposed to be the thick one's. Like you say it was a referendum result that covered the political spectrum.

 

[melias shoes]

I know you prefer that, but you would though wouldn't you? I think we'll leave this discussion here now which resulted from comments made between me and other non Brexit ideologue believers unlike yourself.

(Since you are here though, I must say I haven't laughed so much at TV since the last series of Alan Partridge on Sky Atlantic - Sky News was comedy gold with what it was showing from Manchester yesterday, even Kay Burley was funny - and I can't stand Kay Burley- it was that bad for The Tories )

Every time Diane Abbott speaks is comedy gold. Remember her trying to come up with figures on how she was going to pay for extra police? Genius.

 

[Baldseagull]

Poorer people not having to pay more than neccessary for a product?

If we are buying a product from overseas at the expence of manufacturers in this country, why? Do tariffs solve the problem? No. If we can't make as good a product or we can't compete on price, there is good information there, we should probably make what we are making better, or make something else. To think that making a product more expensive for everyone is good economics we are fooling ourselves. There is maybe one set of circumstances which are difficult, like China dumping it's steel, because perhaps when they raise the price we will need our own again, but in general it's better economics to have people pay the best prices for goods (anything else hurts the poorest in society), and if neccessary adapt and improve our own sectors so as to either compete with or complement those competitive goods from overseas.

Protectionism and trade wars are generally not good policies, and hurt the poorest in society. They also discourage an innovative, adaptative and flexable economy.

What about product produced with state subsidy, by forced labour, with poor environmental practices, child labour, poor workers rights, in countries with extremely low tax for corporations or low standards of animal welfare? Many of the tariffs in the world are to prevent unfair competition, not just competition.

If every other nation on earth can sell in the UK without tariff, what will bring them to the table to talk about us increasing our access to their market? What would we have left to offer, other than a threat of imposing tariff if they wont deal fairly with us? What leverage would we have in asking other nations to improve their workers rights, stop using child labour, improve animal welfare etc?

 

[Baldseagull]

Work is ongoing? What work and where? All I'm seeing is Ireland firmly in agreement with Apple that nothing illegal was done. As for Luxembourg, they've been allowing this sort of thing for years and nothing even gets reported. Just as turkeys won't vote for Christmas the pigs won't vote for the removal of the trough.

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/company-tax/anti-tax-avoidance-package_en

 

[Berty23]

Impossible for some to equate.
There are some on here who are driven solely by their hatred of the Tories, this hostility tends to blind reasoned judgement and cloud the reality that the vote covered all political persuasions.
You can see it as a recurring theme in many of their posts. Its tedious but seems to make them happy.

The biggest leaver of them all is Corbyn. The leave vote was driven by the left and right. Centre ground was remain. This is the bizarre thing about it. The right of the Tory party getting their vote could lead to the collapse of their government and put in Corbyn. Funny old world.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Were supposed to be the thick one's.

...

 

[melias shoes]

...

Predictive text is a great thing.

 

[studio150]

Great. Another Brexit thread.

It was of course included in the full Brexit thread sometime before the Argus picked it up from their fish n chip papers

 

[studio150]

I didn't need a newspaper to tell me which way to vote. Besides being a leaver I'm far to Thick to be able to read anyway..

The deliberate dropping of the second 0 and wrong use of capital T just to emphasise your point in a comic way.

Well done now go and support Chelsea