[Politics] Brexit

[alfredmizen]

Sounds like it

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-Turkey-to-join-EU-despite-migrant-fears.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-10773007

Nothing to add mate ? [MENTION=12947]Lincoln Imp[/MENTION]

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Mainstream British politicians of whatever flavour have long been advocating Turkey's membership of the EU, here is Miliband in 2012 confirming how Labour were "working tirelessly" to achieve it.

http://ceftus.org/2012/07/04/message-from-ed-miliband/

This despite knowing that the membership of Turkey would be deeply unpopular to Labour's core working class voters, the people they purport to represent.

But both Labour and the Tories don't, as both looked the other way when thousands of Ford workers in the UK were made redundant when work moved to Turkey in a new factory paid for with UK taxpayers money.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1159026.ece

Nothing short of a national f@cking disgrace, and still people want to whine on about how great it is being in the EU.

I bet those ex Ford workers and their families in Southampton voted leave............whilst the soft and hard Tories voted remain.

Quite.

You've been whining on about Ford Transits for months but you know perfectly well that UK support for Turkish accession was a diplomatic smokescreen made in the full knowledge that it wasn't going to happen any time soon - Cameron himself estimated it would take centuries.

 

[alfredmizen]

You've been whining on about Ford Transits for months but you know perfectly well that UK support for Turkish accession was a diplomatic smokescreen made in the full knowledge that it wasn't going to happen any time soon - Cameron himself estimated it would take centuries.

To gullible people, and centuries ?? You're a bigger bullsh1tter than him.

 

[Soulman]

If turkey hadn't had that abortive coup they would be a lot nearer joining than you're suggesting.

I think you are right there, maybe not for a few years but the cash they were getting for the influx of immigrants, and the goodwill they were showing, was certainly racking up the points. Unfortunately they blew it when the killing started.

 

[cunning fergus]

You've been whining on about Ford Transits for months but you know perfectly well that UK support for Turkish accession was a diplomatic smokescreen made in the full knowledge that it wasn't going to happen any time soon - Cameron himself estimated it would take centuries.

Yes I have because it is a very clear example of how British and EU politicians do not act in the interests of British and EU citizens. Rather than protect British and EU jobs they have acted in the interests of Ford and non EU Turkish workers.

This is the way the EU and British politicians work, they cannot be trusted.

All the while the EU exists they can hide this kind of shit, you may not care about the working class, I do and it's unforgivable.

 

[Baldseagull]

I wasn't discussing Turkey joining the EU. Don't know why you can't understand that, it's extremely simple. I could make a snide remark about remainers and not understanding, but I won't.

You said you thought very few leave voters had Turkish people in mind when placing their x on the paper, you said that most Brexiters were smart enough to know that as Turkey is not an EU member, voting leave would have no bearing one way or another on Turkish workers coming here.
But you say now you were not talking about Turkey joining the EU, so for clarity, could you tell us what your belief was/is regarding the likelihood of Turkey joining the EU? And if you think many leave voters shared/share your view?

 

[wellquickwoody]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38324146

That's handy then

 

[Soulman]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38324146

That's handy then

Jeez. It is like having a Palace season ticket automatically renewed even though you do not want it and you do not support them.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

That is just not an accurate assessment of the data released, I suspect you know it, but to expect to get away with it makes you look a little daft .....

Emphasising the negative and continually ignoring any positive data ..

UK unemployment fell slightly to 1.62 million in the three months to October, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

It meant the unemployment rate held steady at 4.8% in the period, remaining at an 11-year low.

Average weekly earnings excluding bonuses rose by 2.6% - a slight increase on the previous month.

... daft and rather sad!

 

[heathgate]

I think you are right there, maybe not for a few years but the cash they were getting for the influx of immigrants, and the goodwill they were showing, was certainly racking up the points. Unfortunately they blew it when the killing started.

They were effectively... and still are.. being bribed to stop the illegal migration across their borders into the EU. Being paid fir doing what they should have been doing in the 1st place. By turning a blind eye to traffickers, they effectively part funded the terrorism of IS and other Jihadist groups in middle east and North Africa.

Corrupt and primitive.... a perfect reason to remove ourselves from that EU happy clappy environment.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Exactly. There are millions of educated and highly skilled young men in nearby Turkey, fluent in English and wanting to come here to get on, who can be utilised when and where needed in our economy post-Brexit, who can't be currently.

I see you have inadvertently reignited the Turkey 'will they, won't they' debate once more ... vaguely festive I suppose

 

[vegster]

Emphasising the negative and continually ignoring any positive data ..

UK unemployment fell slightly to 1.62 million in the three months to October, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

It meant the unemployment rate held steady at 4.8% in the period, remaining at an 11-year low.

Average weekly earnings excluding bonuses rose by 2.6% - a slight increase on the previous month.

... daft and rather sad!

It is well known how statistics work, they can be twisted almost any way you want. The bottom line is that in our economy money moves upwards to those who are already wealthy and well paid. We have a huge amount of people at the base of the pyramid on zero hours contracts or bumping along the bottom on wages that are on or just above the Minimum Wage.
We have sleepwalked in to a situation where we have much less unionisation and are willing to accept whatever money is offered as we feel we are "Lucky to have a Job ". So many of these jobs are shop work or delivery, cleaning or care work doing long hours for poor pay with little chance of any increase above inflation. Amazon have recently started trialling a store format where you can shop for groceries and it will automatically be charged to your Amazon Prime account without going through checkouts. No checkouts means bye bye to all those low paid supermarket jobs. Shelves will be restocked by robots, robot cleaners will patrol the aisles and other than maybe a couple of security guards watching CCTV there will be no staff....

What then happens when the other supermarkets are undercut by Amazon's lower prices ? Those on low wages will flock to Amazon and the other big supermarkets will have to follow suit with the technology or go out of business. So imagine how many staff the likes of Tesco/Asda/Sainsbury's/Waitrose/Morrisons employ and then think of those being reduced by 95% so that we have even less people with low paid jobs... those people will be truly " Lucky to have a Job " and will accept even worse wages and conditions .. and so the spiral continues down.

Throw in to the mix driverless cars which WILL come sooner or later then subsequently driverless lorries and deliveries too. The trains will be totally automated too in order to save wages and make them more profitable. Short term we will become a heavily overpopulated world with a huge proportion of people unemployed and resentful which will probably lead to huge social unrest and possibly revolution and war...

Personally, in my job, I started in Jan 2015 and was told I would have an annual pay review every June... well June 2015 was pretty difficult for the company allegedly so no increase then, although I did not see the books and I was working just as hard if not harder. This year our June pay review has been rolled in to December as there is going to be some "evening out " in order to standardise contracts across the whole group. So, I had a very good review and and I'm optimistic I might get a 2% increase but I fully expect that NOT to be backdated to June so my pay rise will be just 1% ... however, there is no unionisation in my job and it's not encouraged so there is no one to stand up for us, we are all double teamed by 2 directors who will use the current uncertainty to give me the absolute minimum thanks to the current/future trading environment ...

Still, I'm lucky to have a job.

 

[Baldseagull]

Emphasising the negative and continually ignoring any positive data ..

UK unemployment fell slightly to 1.62 million in the three months to October, according to the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

It meant the unemployment rate held steady at 4.8% in the period, remaining at an 11-year low.

Average weekly earnings excluding bonuses rose by 2.6% - a slight increase on the previous month.

... daft and rather sad!

I don't know if you are aware, but an awful lot of people in the last couple of years became self employed.
If you are unemployed and on benefits, there are departments that push you to interviews, stop benefits if you don't go and generally try to find ways to get you off the books.
If you move from unemployed, to self employed, and spend at least 16 hours a week promoting yourself, you are entitled to working tax credits at about the same rate as your unemployment benefits No one checks if you are knocking doors or mailing flyers, and you could legitimately claim that any time spent up the pub was "networking" as long as you mention your services.
What we should be looking at, is the welfare spend on unemployment and these "in work" benefits, along with those who genuinely work and receive in work benefits, as this will tell us if the employment these people are in is actually reducing welfare spending, or if our welfare spending is just subsidising employers costs of employment.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It is well known how statistics work, they can be twisted almost any way you want. The bottom line is that in our economy money moves upwards to those who are already wealthy and well paid. We have a huge amount of people at the base of the pyramid on zero hours contracts or bumping along the bottom on wages that are on or just above the Minimum Wage.
We have sleepwalked in to a situation where we have much less unionisation and are willing to accept whatever money is offered as we feel we are "Lucky to have a Job ". So many of these jobs are shop work or delivery, cleaning or care work doing long hours for poor pay with little chance of any increase above inflation. Amazon have recently started trialling a store format where you can shop for groceries and it will automatically be charged to your Amazon Prime account without going through checkouts. No checkouts means bye bye to all those low paid supermarket jobs. Shelves will be restocked by robots, robot cleaners will patrol the aisles and other than maybe a couple of security guards watching CCTV there will be no staff....

What then happens when the other supermarkets are undercut by Amazon's lower prices ? Those on low wages will flock to Amazon and the other big supermarkets will have to follow suit with the technology or go out of business. So imagine how many staff the likes of Tesco/Asda/Sainsbury's/Waitrose/Morrisons employ and then think of those being reduced by 95% so that we have even less people with low paid jobs... those people will be truly " Lucky to have a Job " and will accept even worse wages and conditions .. and so the spiral continues down.

Throw in to the mix driverless cars which WILL come sooner or later then subsequently driverless lorries and deliveries too. The trains will be totally automated too in order to save wages and make them more profitable. Short term we will become a heavily overpopulated world with a huge proportion of people unemployed and resentful which will probably lead to huge social unrest and possibly revolution and war...

Personally, in my job, I started in Jan 2015 and was told I would have an annual pay review every June... well June 2015 was pretty difficult for the company allegedly so no increase then, although I did not see the books and I was working just as hard if not harder. This year our June pay review has been rolled in to December as there is going to be some "evening out " in order to standardise contracts across the whole group. So, I had a very good review and and I'm optimistic I might get a 2% increase but I fully expect that NOT to be backdated to June so my pay rise will be just 1% ... however, there is no unionisation in my job and it's not encouraged so there is no one to stand up for us, we are all double teamed by 2 directors who will use the current uncertainty to give me the absolute minimum thanks to the current/future trading environment ...

Still, I'm lucky to have a job.

Yep damn lies and statistics can be spun to suit any particular agenda as this thread continuously proves.

Interesting analysis on our situation and where we are heading. After previous economic crashes/crisis, mass unemployment was usually a consequence leading to numerous other problems. We have mainly avoided this, but at a price, the one you describe. Overall I'm a bit more optimistic that we will successfully adapt to the increasing automation in society.

A good review suggests luck has little to do with it!

 

[5ways]

Of course the vote was before Erdogan went full dictator, and there was a live ongoing application for Turkey to join the EU. Easy to forget.

It was total nonsense. Erdogan was already clearly a nut and had been jailing journalists left right and centre. Turkey had been backsliding for a while. That ongoing application dates from 27 or so years ago and has hardly moved a jot, while loads of other countries have applied and joined in that time with no problem.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I don't know if you are aware, but an awful lot of people in the last couple of years became self employed.
If you are unemployed and on benefits, there are departments that push you to interviews, stop benefits if you don't go and generally try to find ways to get you off the books.
If you move from unemployed, to self employed, and spend at least 16 hours a week promoting yourself, you are entitled to working tax credits at about the same rate as your unemployment benefits No one checks if you are knocking doors or mailing flyers, and you could legitimately claim that any time spent up the pub was "networking" as long as you mention your services.
What we should be looking at, is the welfare spend on unemployment and these "in work" benefits, along with those who genuinely work and receive in work benefits, as this will tell us if the employment these people are in is actually reducing welfare spending, or if our welfare spending is just subsidising employers costs of employment.

Agreed also the percentage of new jobs created in the last decade going to non-UK citizens plus our overall population growing rapidly (significantly fuelled by immigration) puts a different slant on the record levels of employment/unemployment stats.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It was total nonsense. Erdogan was already clearly a nut and had been jailing journalists left right and centre. Turkey had been backsliding for a while. That ongoing application dates from 27 or so years ago and has hardly moved a jot, while loads of other countries have applied and joined in that time with no problem.

And yet the EU was giving them billions to meet the required entry level ... Déjà vu

 

[5ways]

And yet the EU was giving them billions to meet the required entry level ... Déjà vu

May have noticed they occupy a rather sensitive area and it would be greatly beneficial to the whole EU (us too) if Turkey didn't go to pot. Spending money to promote democracy in Turkey has failed, fine, but you can't tell me it's a bad idea in principle.

 

[vegster]

Yep damn lies and statistics can be spun to suit any particular agenda as this thread continuously proves.

Interesting analysis on our situation and where we are heading. After previous economic crashes/crisis, mass unemployment was usually a consequence leading to numerous other problems. We have mainly avoided this, but at a price, the one you describe. Overall I'm a bit more optimistic that we will successfully adapt to the increasing automation in society.

A good review suggests luck has little to do with it!

Currently our economy is geared up to maximise profits at all costs, if companies can get people off the books it reduces their biggest cost, wages. But when people lose their jobs they have less money to spend so companies will have to cut costs further.... on and on. Despite us working harder and harder on mostly poor wages the rise of automation will further erode jobs, I really can't see any increase in jobs except things that can't be replaced by automation.

 

[WATFORD zero]

It is well known how statistics work, they can be twisted almost any way you want. The bottom line is that in our economy money moves upwards to those who are already wealthy and well paid. We have a huge amount of people at the base of the pyramid on zero hours contracts or bumping along the bottom on wages that are on or just above the Minimum Wage.
We have sleepwalked in to a situation where we have much less unionisation and are willing to accept whatever money is offered as we feel we are "Lucky to have a Job ". So many of these jobs are shop work or delivery, cleaning or care work doing long hours for poor pay with little chance of any increase above inflation. Amazon have recently started trialling a store format where you can shop for groceries and it will automatically be charged to your Amazon Prime account without going through checkouts. No checkouts means bye bye to all those low paid supermarket jobs. Shelves will be restocked by robots, robot cleaners will patrol the aisles and other than maybe a couple of security guards watching CCTV there will be no staff....

What then happens when the other supermarkets are undercut by Amazon's lower prices ? Those on low wages will flock to Amazon and the other big supermarkets will have to follow suit with the technology or go out of business. So imagine how many staff the likes of Tesco/Asda/Sainsbury's/Waitrose/Morrisons employ and then think of those being reduced by 95% so that we have even less people with low paid jobs... those people will be truly " Lucky to have a Job " and will accept even worse wages and conditions .. and so the spiral continues down.

Throw in to the mix driverless cars which WILL come sooner or later then subsequently driverless lorries and deliveries too. The trains will be totally automated too in order to save wages and make them more profitable. Short term we will become a heavily overpopulated world with a huge proportion of people unemployed and resentful which will probably lead to huge social unrest and possibly revolution and war...

Personally, in my job, I started in Jan 2015 and was told I would have an annual pay review every June... well June 2015 was pretty difficult for the company allegedly so no increase then, although I did not see the books and I was working just as hard if not harder. This year our June pay review has been rolled in to December as there is going to be some "evening out " in order to standardise contracts across the whole group. So, I had a very good review and and I'm optimistic I might get a 2% increase but I fully expect that NOT to be backdated to June so my pay rise will be just 1% ... however, there is no unionisation in my job and it's not encouraged so there is no one to stand up for us, we are all double teamed by 2 directors who will use the current uncertainty to give me the absolute minimum thanks to the current/future trading environment ...

Still, I'm lucky to have a job.

Agree completely, but surely now Donald, Boris and Nigel have got their way, this will be put right