Boris Johnson to hold press conference at 4pm

[Thunder Bolt]

Has anyone managed to explain how most of east Sussex is still tier 2? Sorry if I've missed it.

I think the hospitals aren’t getting over run.

 

[Notters]

I think the hospitals aren’t getting over run.

Seems remarkable given how few there are.

 

[Bozza]

Porton Down was warning the government of the virus mutation a few weeks ago, but Johnson likes being popular and wanted to be known as ‘saving Christmas’. He left it until the last possible moment, which built up hope. Now many feel very let down.
He shouldn’t have promised anything but said the situation will be monitored.

The virus has mutated numerous times over the last 10 months or so. As far as I'm aware from what I've read, none of the mutations have been significant in any way. I simply can't see how anyone can pin "He knew there was a dangerous new strain some time ago, but ignored it" on Johnson, regardless of how much they dislike him. Nothing Whitty nor Vallance said yesterday gave any credence to any other version of events, other than the potential dangers of this new strain have only come to light very recently.

Communication along the course of this have not been very good at times - few can dispute that. But once again, I do have synpathy for the government when almost everyone calls for decisions and certainty and then, weeks later with the benefit of considerable hindsight, comes back and snipes.

Yes, it would have been far better to give a message like "We would like to be able to allow people to enjoy a cautious, small 'normal' Christmas, and to facilitate that we are going to do X, Y and Z. However if, when we get into mid-December, the spread of the virus is higher than we'd like and if hospitals are stressed then we will not be able to do that."

However, had that message had been delivered, the government would have been pilloried by many, including the leader of the opposition, for dithering, being indecisive and not allowing people to plan with certainty.

Like almost every element of this, our government, like many others, is damned whatever they say and do, as they would be if they did anything different.

 

[Bozza]

And, just to back up my point on numerous mutations having taken place...

SARS-CoV-2 is an RNA virus, and mutations arise naturally as the virus replicates. Many thousands of mutations have already arisen, but only a very small minority are likely to be important and to change the virus in an appreciable way. COG-UK says that there are currently around 4000 mutations in the spike protein.

Sharon Peacock, director of COG-UK, told the Science Media Centre briefing, “Mutations are expected and are a natural part of evolution. Many thousands of mutations have already arisen, and the vast majority have no effect on the virus but can be useful as a barcode to monitor outbreaks.”​

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The virus has mutated numerous times over the last 10 months or so. As far as I'm aware from what I've read, none of the mutations have been significant in any way. I simply can't see how anyone can pin "He knew there was a dangerous new strain some time ago, but ignored it" on Johnson, regardless of how much they dislike him. Nothing Whitty nor Vallance said yesterday gave any credence to any other version of events, other than the potential dangers of this new strain have only come to light very recently.

Communication along the course of this have not been very good at times - few can dispute that. But once again, I do have synpathy for the government when almost everyone calls for decisions and certainty and then, weeks later with the benefit of considerable hindsight, comes back and snipes.

Yes, it would have been far better to give a message like "We would like to be able to allow people to enjoy a cautious, small 'normal' Christmas, and to facilitate that we are going to do X, Y and Z. However if, when we get into mid-December, the spread of the virus is higher than we'd like and if hospitals are stressed then we will not be able to do that."

However, had that message had been delivered, the government would have been pilloried by many, including the leader of the opposition, for dithering, being indecisive and not allowing people to plan with certainty.

Like almost every element of this, our government, like many others, is damned whatever they say and do, as they would be if they did anything different.

Witty said they had known about the mutation since September, in the same press conference.

 

[Bozza]

Witty said they had known about the mutation since September, in the same press conference.

Yes and I'm not suggesting otherwise.

But there was no indication this particular mutation, one of 4,000 already, posed a different risk until the last few days.

Are you suggesting that as each of the 4,000 mutations already were identified - that's about 13 per day, every day for the last 10 months - should trigger a change in government behaviour when there was no indication that any of them came with a different risk profile?

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

So as the mask wearing expert, stood 2 metres to the right of Boris, said months and months ago the second strain could be far far worse why did Boris proclaimed he was "Saving Christmas" and allowing all manner of social interaction?

Because (IMO) what he was really trying to save was the economy. It is a trade off with health. He has been under enormous pressure to prioritize saving jobs as well. He is in a no win situation as are all global leaders and you would have criticized whatever decisions he made simply because he is Tory.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Heard this argument today, young people’s lives and businesses are being ruined to protect the elderly at the end of their years. One old girl even apologised saying the younger ones have already sacrificed so much they need to live their lives now.

With millions on the breadline no business no income no home in some cases when is enough enough

I have tried to avoid posting on this thread for obvious reasons. I normally agree with you, but that comment is beyond the pail.

You seem to accept the sacrifice of the elderly and vulnerable to save businesses, to save young people. Many people including myself see that a balance/compromise has to be made. A lot of difficult choices to be considered. Not easy whether Tory, Labour or any other political persuasion.

But to then say ‘when is enough enough?’ is just laughable. When you have a nightly curfew, when you are not allowed to travel more than 5km from your home, when London has a ring of steel around it effectively shutting it down, when you have fines of £1000 for a minor breach of Coved rules, perhaps then you can say ‘When is enough?’.

I heavily questioned both the measures taken here, and the motives of the person making the rules, but in hindsight they absolutely worked.

I wish EVERYONE a safe Christmas, and a release from COVID as early as possible in 2021.

 

[Krusty]

Because (IMO) what he was really trying to save was the economy. It is a trade off with health. He has been under enormous pressure to prioritize saving jobs as well. He is in a no win situation as are all global leaders and you would have criticized whatever decisions he made simply because he is Tory.

Indeed, have the very similar decisions in Wales (by Labour) and Scotland (by the SNP) been criticized in the same way??

 

[Deleted member 2719]

Strangely though, it's the right wing press who are encouraging breaking the rules.
Brexiters generally won't be told what to do.

What has Lamptey got to do with it!

I don't read right wing papers, what have they said?

I don't see the connection with brexiteers, all the people I see via social media (not you) are the remainers and left wing bias that push the agenda about bumbling Boris, saying they don't know what they are doing, when it is science and data that dictates what they have to do and what they act on.
The consistent undermining of this government has been astounding and not realistic.
If the left care about people they would work with the government, to help get this virus beat rather than make people rebel government rules. As ultimately they with the media are a catalyst in spreading this vile disease.

Ps I know you and you wife are a decent people who would never break the rules.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Because (IMO) what he was really trying to save was the economy. It is a trade off with health. He has been under enormous pressure to prioritize saving jobs as well. He is in a no win situation as are all global leaders and you would have criticized whatever decisions he made simply because he is Tory.

You are correct that he has to balance health against the economy, and there is no doubt that this new strain has had an effect.

However I don't believe that this is the sole reason for his 'Xmas plan' U-turn. From before he announced his 'Xmas plan' the 2nd wave hadn't been bought under control and Sage and significant other scientists and scientific bodies, more qualified than you or I were warning that this plan would have disastrous consequences post Xmas. I believe that his plan was only implemented in the first place because of his desire to be popular and his inability to make tough decisions together with a basic consistent failure when it comes to assessing information, detail and marrying that to policy decisions (and I won't bother listing the examples of those in the last 12 months).

And before you accuse me of Tory hating I have voted Tory a number of times. It's not political, it's his complete and utter incompetence.

Anyway, I believe what we have now is what we should have planned for all along (although I'm still not sure Sussex should be tier 2 when surrounded by Tier 4's. See ? Tough decisions).

 

[Stat Brother]

Like almost every element of this, our government, like many others, is damned whatever they say and do, as they would be if they did anything different.

Hmmmm, I certainly believe that should be true.
Nobody signed up for this, and I'd be worried for the stability of anyone that would.

That aside.

When the Prime minister declared he was "saving Christmas".

I (along with however many thousands others) declared "why?".

It was a ridiculous thing to say.
It went completely against scientific thinking.
It was senseless pointless and desperate.

It's certainly not the only time he has placed himself on the wrong side of the required message.

It feels like Boris has gone out of his way to make a near impossible job even harder for himself, and his electorate.
I don't think his actions can be brushed off as 'damned if he does, damned if he doesn't', they should be but they can't and that is unforgivable.

 

[beorhthelm]

The one thing I am understanding is that science is not unilaterally behind the Tories current stance. So for that reason I expect a higher standard of explanation passed to the public to justify their plan of action.

which science, the science that says we should have full lockdown or the science that says we shouldnt bother at all? as i say the official and unofficial SAGE both favour harder lockdown, the government is balancing that with other factors, because there's more than science to consider. your argument we should less lockdown because government isnt following science, is contradictory to the position they should take if they followed the science.

 

[mikeyjh]

Indeed, have the very similar decisions in Wales (by Labour) and Scotland (by the SNP) been criticized in the same way??

Really? The response in both Wales and Scotland regarding those devolved matters has been far clearer, quicker and stronger. The biggest debacles of all - Eat out to help out, PPE contracts, the Christmas break were all of Johnson and his government's doing. Drakeford and Sturgeon had little choice but to follow the UK lead regarding Christmas. Johnson has done nothing to try and pursue and nationwide strategy and, in fact, is fast tracking the break up of the UK....

 

[Bozza]

I believe that his plan was only implemented in the first place because of his desire to be popular

it's his complete and utter incompetence.

His plan?

It was the plan of all four UK governments, two of which have the same level of fondness of Boris Johnson that you do.

Where is your condemnation of the incompetence of Sturgeon, Drakeford and Foster?

 

[Bozza]

Really? The response in both Wales and Scotland regarding those devolved matters has been far clearer, quicker and stronger. The biggest debacles of all - Eat out to help out, PPE contracts, the Christmas break were all of Johnson and his government's doing. Drakeford and Sturgeon had little choice but to follow the UK lead regarding Christmas. Johnson has done nothing to try and pursue and nationwide strategy and, in fact, is fast tracking the break up of the UK....

Ha ha ha - yes, because Sturgeon has long shown herself to be Johnson's lapdog, going along with all he says.

Let's be clear, I'm as dismayed today that Johnson is our Prime Minister as I was on 12th December last year when he was elected, but I do at least try to look at each decision and situation with some degree of impartiality.

 

[Hampster Gull]

What has Lamptey got to do with it!

I don't read right wing papers, what have they said?

I don't see the connection with brexiteers, all the people I see via social media (not you) are the remainers and left wing bias that push the agenda about bumbling Boris, saying they don't know what they are doing, when it is science and data that dictates what they have to do and what they act on.
The consistent undermining of this government has been astounding and not realistic.
If the left care about people they would work with the government, to help get this virus beat rather than make people rebel government rules. As ultimately they with the media are a catalyst in spreading this vile disease.

Ps I know you and you wife are a decent people who would never break the rules.

Its not science and data that dictates what they have to do, that misjudges it. They advise, inform. And as ever its very rarely black and white. They help inform the government, who have to use that and other information to make the decisions. No politician can abdicate to science and data, although the government tried to peddle that line, thats too simplistic a view.

Undermining the government has been astounding? No government gets a pass from challenge, that is what democracy is about. This government doesn't get a pass.

This countries performance is in the worse end of the bottom decile in the world in both the deaths per population and in gpd. Shameful.

 

[Leas]

Then perhaps he should stop saying what he thinks the public want to hear:-

"I'm saving Christmas"

& instead tell us what we need to hear:-

'keep your distance, wear a mask, sorry it's essential services and nothing else'.

why wear a mask they dont work ? if they do why are we locked down ?

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

You are correct that he has to balance health against the economy, and there is no doubt that this new strain has had an effect.

However I don't believe that this is the sole reason for his 'Xmas plan' U-turn. From before he announced his 'Xmas plan' the 2nd wave hadn't been bought under control and Sage and significant other scientists and scientific bodies, more qualified than you or I were warning that this plan would have disastrous consequences post Xmas. I believe that his plan was only implemented in the first place because of his desire to be popular and his inability to make tough decisions together with a basic consistent failure when it comes to assessing information, detail and marrying that to policy decisions (and I won't bother listing the examples of those in the last 12 months).

And before you accuse me of Tory hating I have voted Tory a number of times. It's not political, it's his complete and utter incompetence.

Anyway, I believe what we have now is what we should have planned for all along (although I'm still not sure Sussex should be tier 2 when surrounded by Tier 4's. See ? Tough decisions).

I don’t disagree with much/any of that. Boris is a libertarian and his instincts differ from yours and mine. I suppose I am just pointing out that had he put us into full lockdown in early December and cancelled Christmas then the anti Tory narrative would now instead be that Boris doesn’t care about people’s livelihoods and the rich can simply slink off to their holiday homes, leaving the poor isolated and without income. It is so predictable that even I can write the script and I am heartily sick of modern politics with its point scoring and people backing positions, like football teams, because of the colour of the rosette (I am not saying that is what you are doing).

 

[Bozza]

Hmmmm, I certainly believe that should be true.
Nobody signed up for this, and I'd be worried for the stability of anyone that would.

That aside.

When the Prime minister declared he was "saving Christmas".

I (along with however many thousands others) declared "why?".

It was a ridiculous thing to say.
It went completely against scientific thinking.
It was senseless pointless and desperate.

It's certainly not the only time he has placed himself on the wrong side of the required message.

It feels like Boris has gone out of his way to make a near impossible job even harder for himself, and his electorate.
I don't think his actions can be brushed off as 'damned if he does, damned if he doesn't', they should be but they can't and that is unforgivable.

Like so many others, you seem to have forgotten to mention the other three UK leaders who presented the same plan.