Boris Johnson to campaign to leave the EU

[Behind Enemy Lines]

If we vote leave, we won't just leave, the EU can try and persuade us to stay on different terms. They've done similar before. Also, if we do just leave, other countries may too push for reform.

No. If we vote to leave, we leave, that's whats at stake here. Imagine Johnson, Farage and Galloway and all the other leavers saying oh we've won the referendum now let's re-negotiate? Come off it. We are about to vote on whether or not we stay inside the EU. There will be no re-negotiation, that's one of the prime issues here. Those who think the United Kingdom, or what's left of it after the Scots vote to end the Union in the wake of an out vote, will just be able to magic up much better trade deals on our own are living in cloud cuckoo land. It won't happen.

 

[Icy Gull]

If we vote leave, we won't just leave, the EU can try and persuade us to stay on different terms. They've done similar before..

You make it sound like we are leaving Sky TV

 

[beorhthelm]

No. If we vote to leave, we leave, that's whats at stake here. Imagine Johnson, Farage and Galloway and all the other leavers saying oh we've won the referendum now let's re-negotiate? Come off it. We are about to vote on whether or not we stay inside the EU. There will be no re-negotiation, that's one of the prime issues here. Those who think the United Kingdom, or what's left of it after the Scots vote to end the Union in the wake of an out vote, will just be able to magic up much better trade deals on our own are living in cloud cuckoo land. It won't happen.

recent history of EU response to referendum differs from this view.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

recent history of EU response to referendum differs from this view.

We cannot say that. One thing to have discussions in the context of a future referendum, quite another to have an actual leave vote. People need to wake up, if we vote to leave, that's it, we're out.

 

[fat old seagull]

When I deliberate (the even unlikely) possibility of Boris being our PM, coupled with Trump being President. Thank God I'm old!

Throw in the Putin factor, ISIL and stand by for Armageddon.

 

[Gwylan]

recent history of EU response to referendum differs from this view.

You're mistaken on this The only states that have had referenda on leaving the EU are the UK in 1975 and Greenland in 1985. When Greenland left, there were no attempts to offer any other deals.

There have been referenda on various aspects of EU treaties but we're in uncharted territory if the UK opted to leave

 

[beorhthelm]

We cannot say that. One thing to have discussions in the context of a future referendum, quite another to have an actual leave vote. People need to wake up, if we vote to leave, that's it, we're out.

so the vote takes effect on the 24th June, all treaties, laws, regulations and contracts immediately invalidated?

or, is there to be a period of negotiated withdrawal?

 

[Triggaaar]

You make it sound like we are leaving Sky TV

I think it's the same call centre.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

So, Boris is hinting that if we vote to leave we can go back an negociate a better deal to stay in. And people are swallowing this? You could not make it up!

For some, if they came home early and found Boris in bed with their missus, they would happily accept his explanation that he was obtaining body warmth after his clothes had been stolen by a foreigner. FFS!

 

[beorhthelm]

You're mistaken on this The only states that have had referenda on leaving the EU are the UK in 1975 and Greenland in 1985. When Greenland left, there were no attempts to offer any other deals.

There have been referenda on various aspects of EU treaties but we're in uncharted territory if the UK opted to leave

convenient to ignore the referendums that have been held on Euro entry, Lisbon, Greece. vote says one thing, actions are another. as you say there is no precedence for a country leaving, so there is every possibility open on how it will be responded to. my point is not that there will definitely be a further stage, but that we cant say there definitely wont be.

 

[Triggaaar]

No. If we vote to leave, we leave, that's whats at stake here.

It is at stake, and I'm happy for us to leave, but it's not a fact that we'll definitely leave.

Imagine Johnson, Farage and Galloway and all the other leavers saying oh we've won the referendum now let's re-negotiate?

That is exactly what Johnson is proposing. Farage and Galloway won't be leading the government, so it doesn't really matter what they think.

Those who think the United Kingdom, or what's left of it after the Scots vote to end the Union in the wake of an out vote, will just be able to magic up much better trade deals on our own are living in cloud cuckoo land. It won't happen.

If you think the Scots will immediately get another vote, it's you that's living in cloud cuckoo land. Of course the SNP will call for one, but they won't immediately get it. And even if they get the vote at some point, will they really want to leave and be alone without being part of Europe? And even if they do, you say 'what's leff of the UK' - well, it'll be about 92%, since Scotland isn't much of the UK. That's still more than Canada and Australia put together.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

so the vote takes effect on the 24th June, all treaties, laws, regulations and contracts immediately invalidated?

or, is there to be a period of negotiated withdrawal?

Of course it'll take time. There will have to be hundreds of new regulations drawn up, very costly new arrangements with our border controls ( including those currently advantageously based for us in France and Belgium ) and over trade etc. But we will be out and the UK will get no favours from the other EU states over many of these issues when it comes to sorting everything out. No, we will be on our own, weaker and with less influence in our continent.

 

[Gwylan]

convenient to ignore the referendums that have been held

Ahem
Originally Posted by Gwylan
There have been referenda on various aspects of EU treaties ...

There's a huge difference in negotiating within an organisation that you belong to and one that you're outside

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

I think what is clear is that if we vote for 'out' we cannot rule out a last ditch attempt from the EU to keep us in during the 2 year (?) exit negotiations.

However, there is absolutely no guarantee or official indication that this would happen - so to vote to leave on the assumption that there would be a 2nd referendum is just no more than a very high stakes gamble.

I'd worry that this suggestion is just a trick to get people to vote out, but maybe I've taken too many cynical pills today.

 

[Triggaaar]

There will have to be hundreds of new regulations drawn up, very costly new arrangements

Oh no, it will be very costly

But we will be out and the UK will get no favours from the other EU states

Like now then.

No, we will be on our own, weaker

Oh no, we're all alone

Scaremongering claptrap. We were all alone and weak when we faced Napoleon and two world wars. We're not babies. We would continue to support European countries as we did in the past, but we don't need to share their unelected leaders.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

It is at stake, and I'm happy for us to leave, but it's not a fact that we'll definitely leave.
That is exactly what Johnson is proposing. Farage and Galloway won't be leading the government, so it doesn't really matter what they think.

If you think the Scots will immediately get another vote, it's you that's living in cloud cuckoo land. Of course the SNP will call for one, but they won't immediately get it. And even if they get the vote at some point, will they really want to leave and be alone without being part of Europe? And even if they do, you say 'what's leff of the UK' - well, it'll be about 92%, since Scotland isn't much of the UK. That's still more than Canada and Australia put together.

I don't understand your reference to Canada and Australia? Said nothing about the timing of a Scottish referendum but it's extremely likely if we leave the EU, the SNP will have valid grounds to call for and probably get another referendum vote as Circumstance would have materially changed since the last one. The SNP are on record as saying that an independently SNP run Scotland would apply for membership of the EU.

 

[Triggaaar]

I think what is clear is that if we vote for 'out' we cannot rule out a last ditch attempt from the EU to keep us in during the 2 year (?) exit negotiations.

Agreed.

However, there is absolutely no guarantee or official indication that this would happen

Agreed.

so to vote to leave on the assumption that there would be a 2nd referendum is just no more than a very high stakes gamble.

If you really want to stay in the EU, and you were only considering voting out because you think there would be a 2nd referendum, then I agree, that is some gamble.

If we do vote to leave I would welcome the idea of completely renegotiating our place in Europe, if that's what the EU would like, but if not, I'd be fine with leaving the EU. So for me, it's an extra option, that's all.

 

[Gwylan]

Oh no, it will be very costly

Like now then.
Oh no, we're all alone

Scaremongering claptrap. We were all alone and weak when we faced Napoleon and two world wars.

Eh? Napolean was defeated by an alliance of Netherlands, Prussia, Russia and Great Britain. It was the epitome of European co-operation. The WWI was an alliance of France, Belgium and Great Britain (and many commonwealth countries and WW2 was an alliance of a multiple countries (not all within Europe).

I can't think of any time in the last 200 years that we've been 'alone' in any conflict. Even in the madcap Suez venture we had France on our side

 

[Triggaaar]

I don't understand your reference to Canada and Australia?

Simply that we are not so small that we can't trade with the world. We are double the size of Canada and Australia, but they have better GDP per capita and can negotiate deals.

The SNP are on record as saying that an independently SNP run Scotland would apply for membership of the EU.

Yes, the SNP were previously on record saying that they'd automatically be a member of the EU, but they've backtracked on that. I don't know how likely it is that the EU would accept their request, and I don't know that the Scottish people would want to join the Euro, which I imagine would be bad for their economy.

 

[Triggaaar]

Eh? Napolean was defeated by an alliance of Netherlands, Prussia, Russia and Great Britain. It was the epitome of European co-operation. The WWI was an alliance of France, Belgium and Great Britain (and many commonwealth countries and WW2 was an alliance of a multiple countries (not all within Europe).

I can't think of any time in the last 200 years that we've been 'alone' in any conflict. Even in the madcap Suez venture we had France on our side

Exactly! BEL was saying we'd be alone, but we'd be no more alone than on these previous occasions.