[TV] BBC Meat - A threat to our planet?

[CheeseRolls]

Right back at ya buddy....

https://www.science.org.au/curious/earth-environment/population-environment

We could do this all day, both valid arguments, I believe that ultimately war and famine and resources will be our downfall, but hopefully the strong survive and not just the rich and powerful, and we can build again.

The three solutions outlined are not entirely aligned to your vision of doom.

It is though a prediction game and whether you believe population will peak at 11 billion around 2100 or peak at around 9 billion at 2050, depends on how quickly you think fertility rates will fall.

The solution is for more females to move to cities and get educated. So good production will need to become more mechanised. Growing your own food via hydroponics sounds like a positive step.

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[Horton's halftime iceberg]

Overpopulation of the world is a myth. Women are having fewer children now than at any time in history. Many don't have children at all due to education and wanting careers.
It appears there are more people on the earth at the moment because people are living longer, but even that has levelled out.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/the-overpopulation-myth

The great Hans Rosling doing a show on the BBC. He is very sadly missed. His material using UN statistics are legendary. Recommend it to everyone interested in the eradication of world poverty and issues around perceptions of population growth. He is an entertaining presenter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FACK2knC08E

 

[KZNSeagull]

Hang on the worlds population is now roughly 7.7 billion, so if it is predicted to reach 11 billion by 2100 it is still going up or am I missing something and still having an effect on resources....

It is still going up as people are living longer. The birthrate has stabilised at just above 2. So as a huge simplification:

In 2015 there were 2 billion aged 0 to 15, 2 billion aged 15 to 30, 1 billion 30 to 45, 1 billion 45 to 60 and 1 billion 60+ (7 billion)
In 2030 it is predicted that there will be 2 billion 0-15, 2 billion 15 to 30, 2 billion 30 to 45, 1 billion 45 to 60 and 1 billion 60+ (8 billion)
That will repeat itself in 2045 (2bn, 2bn, 2bn, 2bn, 1bn) (9 billion)
From 2060 each generation of 2bn will be replaced by 2bn kids so by 2075 the population will be 10 billion.
By 2100, the UN estimates that life expectancy will have risen 11 years on average so there will be 1bn aged 75+ making 11bn in total.

As I say that is a huge simplification, but you get the gist. Yes it will have an effect on resources, but stabilising the birthrate has already happened. Most of this population growth will be in Asia and Africa as more people move out of extreme poverty and up the income levels.

Edit: Ha! These stats are all from Hans Rosling's book "Factfulness".

 

[Dunk&Disorderly]

Depends if you want to commit genocide on domestic farm animal species


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Confused as to whether this is an argument for or against vegetarianism... ?

At the moment genocide on domestic farm animals is happening every day on a global scale.

 

[Insel affe]

The three solutions outlined are not entirely aligned to your vision of doom.

It is though a prediction game and whether you believe population will peak at 11 billion around 2100 or peak at around 9 billion at 2050, depends on how quickly you think fertility rates will fall.

The solution is for more females to move to cities and get educated. So good production will need to become more mechanised. Growing your own food via hydroponics sounds like a positive step.

They may not be aligned, but do suggest the growth.

Why do females need to move to the cities, that seems strange to me, is that aimed at the so called third world countries ? and if so is a narrative I would expect from rich western leaders pointing the finger, and one I warned about in the doom scenario.

I am not having a go at you personally, just trying to understand, I am not be patronising either.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I like a lot of your thoughtful posts, but cant go along with this one. That article is from 2010, and by someone I have never heard of, who is trying to debunk the opinions of Stephen Hawking and David Attenborough, who are credible sources of opinion. The article also says that the rate of growth is slowing, not that the world population had stopped growing, and that it is increasing by 70 million per year. That is not very comforting.

Also, please see this for some sobering thoughts - https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/

World population will therefore continue to grow in the 21st century, but at a much slower rate compared to the recent past. World population has doubled (100% increase) in 40 years from 1959 (3 billion) to 1999 (6 billion). It is now estimated that it will take another nearly 40 years to increase by another 50% to become 9 billion by 2037.

The latest world population projections indicate that world population will reach 10 billion persons in the year 2057.

I am sure you are concerned when you see the sprawl of urban African cities encroaching more and more on the habitat of big game, and when rain forest is cut down for timber and farming. I really, honestly believe that population growth and consumption is the problem. Sadly, whatever we agree on, we as a global community have not got to grips with issues like this, and show no sign of doing so.

I agree with you about consumption. We are greedy and using far too many resources than we need.
Africa is a huge place, so cities do not need to encroach on big game habitats.

Brazil does not need to burn down forests, but greed is taking over.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Confused as to whether this is an argument for or against vegetarianism... ?

At the moment genocide on domestic farm animals is happening every day on a global scale.

If everyone gave up meat tomorrow, farmers would have no money to feed their animals. Whole herds would be destroyed instantly, as they cannot sustain themselves in the wild.

 

[Dunk&Disorderly]

If everyone gave up meat tomorrow, farmers would have no money to feed their animals. Whole herds would be destroyed instantly, as they cannot sustain themselves in the wild.

Surely nobody assumes that there would ever be a realistic scenario in which that would happen overnight?

 

[Insel affe]

So stop making excuses, make changes and pressure the government into actually doing something.

Like they listen to anything the public say, they listen to the sound of a ding on their phones, that tells them £££$$$$ has been deposited into their bank accounts.

 

[CheeseRolls]

They may not be aligned, but do suggest the growth.

Why do females need to move to the cities, that seems strange to me, is that aimed at the so called third world countries ? and if so is a narrative I would expect from rich western leaders pointing the finger, and one I warned about in the doom scenario.

I am not having a go at you personally, just trying to understand, I am not be patronising either.

Fertility statistics show that education and urban living, contribute significantly to a fall in birth rates. There is a vicious cycle, where a lack of mechanisation in food production, requires a bigger labour force to produce food, which then needs to feed more people, which then discourages investment in mechanising food production. If you are able to land a paid job in a city (hint being literate and numerate will help), taking time off work to bring up hordes of children makes no economic sense. It just results in less money and more mouths to feed.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

What did you question about the programme, out of interest?

Questioned might be the wrong word in some instances – I'm certainly not calling 'FAKE NEWS' on it all – but I question the almost exclusive use of performance athletes and wonder a) what impact it would have on people without a plant-based diet and b) how meat-eaters compare or how many, for example, world champions are meat-eaters or non-plant-based dieters.

I also question whether all of the firefighters had as impressive results as those that were picked out.

Finally, the fact that they were calling out the cigarette and fast-food industries for marketing their products alongside the glossy images of bodybuilders, professional athletes and other successful sportspeople didn't sit quite right with me.

At the end of the day, the programme was effectively produced to 'sell' the plant-based lifestyle – even if everyone doesn't switch to it, the conversation has started and people have it in their minds. And it DID make me think. As I mentioned, the described health benefits are something to definitely take onboard.

 

[rigton70]

It is a shame that this debate often ends up in a simplistic "vegan vs badly produced meat" argument. This is often put out there to back up the vegan cause, as there is only one logical winner in that game, but it is not a correct analysis.

There are some good, insightful comments on this thread. Commercial meat production, with grain-feeding, antibiotics and hormones is unhealthy for the environment and for us. It is driven by population growth, demand for cheap food and profit. We are lucky that we can get our meat (and vegetables) from Tablehurst Farm at Forest Row. This is healthy for us, the land and the environment. Yes, this is more expensive but what is the realistic alternative? The whole biodynamic farming ethos is to live in harmony with the soil and planet.

Stopping eating meat altogether, while at the same time continuing deforestation in order to create more arable land, will undoubtedly continue the destruction of our climate and ecology.

Robert Peston did a documentary on the impact of population growth some while ago, and it was mind-blowing. There was a forecast that between now and 2050 the demand for basic commodities will become so high that they will become luxury items. Scary stuff.

Have you got a link to said documentary.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

eat local, British or European meats that havent been reared on former rain forest.

If only it were that simple. We ship millions of tonnes of soy in to feed those animals, so the deforestation caused by animal agriculture is still going on in the rain forests halfway round the world.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

Until the Americas consider their red meat addiction (which isn't going to happen anytime soon - see also America and guns) then whatever we do ain't going to make much difference unfortunately

A very defeatists attitude that is also way off the mark. For every single person that went vegan for a year, you’d save an estimated; 1,519,823 litres of water, 6,607kg of grain, 1,022sq.m of forest, 3,322kg of Co2 and 365 animal lives.

 

[dazzer6666]

A very defeatists attitude that is also way off the mark. For every single person that went vegan for a year, you’d save an estimated; 1,519,823 litres of water, 6,607kg of grain, 1,022sq.m of forest, 3,322kg of Co2 and 365 animal lives.

Amazing stats - source ?

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

Amazing stats - source ?

It’s from the studies cited in the documentary ‘Cowspiracy’. If you look beyond the obvious agenda of the documentary, the science is solid, verifiable and peer reviewed.

There’s this little nifty ‘calculator’ that crunches the numbers for you

https://thevegancalculator.com

 

[dazzer6666]

It’s from the studies cited in the documentary ‘Cowspiracy’. If you look beyond the obvious agenda of the documentary, the science is solid, verifiable and peer reviewed.

There’s this little nifty ‘calculator’ that crunches the numbers for you

https://thevegancalculator.com

Thanks, will have a, erm, butchers at that [emoji16]

 

[LowKarate]

I can’t keep up with all these digital channels.

BBC3
BBC4
BBC Meat

It’s all getting a bit too niche these days.

 

[beorhthelm]

If only it were that simple. We ship millions of tonnes of soy in to feed those animals, so the deforestation caused by animal agriculture is still going on in the rain forests halfway round the world.

though we ship in more soy for human consumption. most our local produce is fed by grass and other cereals (impact there for sure). it would take millions of tonnes more to substitute meat and milk produced.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

though we ship in more soy for human consumption. most our local produce is fed by grass and other cereals (impact there for sure). it would take millions of tonnes more to substitute meat and milk produced.

True, but globally, only around 6% of soy is used for human food, which is mostly consumed in Asia, whereas a whopping 70% is used for animal agriculture. My point was that even when buying ‘locally sourced’ meat, you are most likely still contributing, even unwitting, to the huge problems caused by animal agriculture.