Barcelona: Van hits crowds on Ramblas tourist area

[The Gem]

Which is exactly their thinking. Well done.

No, you have misinterpreted my answer to one that suits.

What I am saying is, if they do something like the Barcelona, London attacks etc, then deport them all and their family don't lock them up, they do not deserve a penny of mine or your money to keep them locked up.

 

[Goldstone1976]

Agreed. I'd kick out o imprison the family or anyone connected with a known attacker as well.

I'm interested in how you define a couple of terms in this post: "the family" and "anyone connected".

Let's hypothesise that the "known attacker" is 22. His parents immigrated here 25 years ago, bringing large elements of their family with them at the time - say, the father's parents, the father's sister and her husband & daughter aged, say 10, at the time of immigration here. Let's also say that none of these people have been in any trouble with the Police. That sounds like a reasonable possibility, I'd say.

Family

Do you imprison/forcibly repatriate the attacker's parents, now aged early 50's?
The attacker's grandparents, now aged late 70's/early 80's?
The attacker's aunt and uncle?
His cousin?
What if the cousin had a baby 5 years ago (the cousin would now be 35, remember) - does she (born and bred in the UK) go too?

"Anyone connected"

His hairdresser?
The bloke he bought his second hand bike off, responding to an ad in Gumtree?
The girl who was operating the till in B&Q when he bought an item that would later be used by him in building his fake explosives belt?
His teachers?

I hope that the answer to at least some of these people would be "no, of course not. Don't be facile". Fine - where then, would you draw the line? Who goes/gets imprisoned; who doesn't?

 

[TheJasperCo]

Copycat incident unfolding in Finland now, according to newswires.

One fatality and several injuries.

 

[Dave the OAP]

Which lends weight to preventing 'them' whoever that is, coming into our country. Too risky.

But, " them" 7/7 bombers were all born in the uk to Pakistani parents....would you suggest everyone born to Pakistanis are deported...to where exactly?

 

[Dave the OAP]

We cant beat them with law. That is not a language they understand.

Fight fire with fire.

I can't work out if you are serious or just saying this sort of thing to get a reaction.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

As Muslims see it, their principal weapons of conquest are the wombs of their women. Indeed, outbreeding non-Muslims is seen as an instrument of jihad. Poles, Czechs, Slovakians and Hungarians – other peoples, too – see this all too clearly and will not permit a Muslim presence to gain a foothold in their countries. For countries in Western Europe, it is too late for that. Western European politicians are spineless and the people are cowed by political correctness and repressive restrictions on freedom of speech.

 

[Mackenzie]

But, " them" 7/7 bombers were all born in the uk to Pakistani parents....would you suggest everyone born to Pakistanis are deported...to where exactly?

I can't work out if you are serious or just saying this sort of thing to get a reaction.

What would you put forward as a solution to this very complex problem? I'm genuinely interested in how you'd like our government to act.

 

[Dave the OAP]

What would you put forward as a solution to this very complex problem? I'm genuinely interested in how you'd like our government to act.

I have absolutely no idea.

You are not fighting an army, you are fighting an idea...an interpretation of a belief that is totally abhorrent to most of the rest of the Islamic religion and who believe that if you do not follow their own interpretation of said religion, you must be killed. Which of course covers 99% of the worlds population who are therefore targets.

As I said above, I am not a fatalist, however I believe that as long as the security services can catch the big plots and we have secure systems at airports and ports then we have to realise that there will always be the lone nutters out there and we must be vigilant.

To suggest we start rounding up anyone with a dark skin is just plain wrong.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Yes I think that the left (of which I am generally a member) is far too reluctant to call out intolerance exercised in the name of Islam and that we also go to ludicrous lengths to deny the impact of strands of Islamic ideology on terrorism. The challenge is how to do this without adding fuel to attacks on Muslims. I heard a quote on a Sam Harris podcast along the lines of the right getting ti wrong about Muslims and the left getting it wrong about Islam.

That's a brilliant quote and the result of so much 'getting it wrong' is often a shadow debate with no solutions but plenty of point scoring.

 

[The_Viper]

Ditto just this week I have had four or fve separate conversations with people who will say it one on one but would be too scared to say it in public or a larger group. Everyone is too scared of being called a racist to say the bleeding obvious that radical muslims should be kicked out of the country or imprisoned and new radical muslims should not be allowed in.

We've moved on from racist now. If you wrong think you're now labelled a NAZI FASCIST

 

[portlock seagull]

But, " them" 7/7 bombers were all born in the uk to Pakistani parents....would you suggest everyone born to Pakistanis are deported...to where exactly?

That's why I used inverted commas. You can't tar everyone with the same brush. And no I wouldn't, that's a stupid idea and not something I would have suggested, surprised anyone would.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Its weird, contemporary western liberalism maybe at the heart of people killing in the name of religion and voting for Brexit.

Yes I think it's a factor. There is also irony in those Westerners who consider themselves the most liberal (see post by [MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION]) having values and behaviors most at odds with Islam.

 

[Dave the OAP]

Yes I think it's a factor. There is also irony in those Westerners who consider themselves the most liberal (see post by @cunningfergus) having values and behaviors most at odds with Islam.

Not all Islam, just a more extreme interpretation of Islam.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Copycat incident unfolding in Finland now, according to newswires.

One fatality and several injuries.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40978446

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Whilst there are clearly cases where whole families appear to be full of Jihadists, I don't think it's as easy as that. For a start, many of the young men who are picked up by MI5 are because someone in the family has contacted the authorities. If you threaten to kick the entire family out then no-one is going to let on to the security services that they have a radicalised family member.

We've had such a case here in Brighton. One young lad was radicalised and he's now dead (and I'm certainly not going to shed any tears over that) but would it be fair to deport his mother also? Have a read of this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...llege-week-Ibrahim-killed-U-S-bomb-Syria.html

Hmmm. Let's just say he was connected to a group in Saltdean. I'm not so sure his Mum was unaware of his connections.

 

[Dave the OAP]

We've moved on from racist now. If you wrong think you're now labelled a NAZI FASCIST

But there is a fatal flaw in giraffe's argument. He suggests deporting extremists...but deport them to where? I keep coming back to the 7/7 murderers....they are/ were British...not arabs or middle eastern terrorists.

Both lee Rigby's killers were British born...where would you deport them to?

This is why this situation is impossible to manage and to bring in legislation to bring in internment is not. It didn't work with the IRA although of course with the IRA there was a goal they had which could be negotiated against..i.e. The unification of Ireland, but they realised after an armed struggle they were not going to get it by blowing people up...instead they talked and negotiated and ended up with a power sharing agreement. Unfortunately, the is no common ground with ISIL/ AL Queda to negotiate.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Not all Islam, just a more extreme interpretation of Islam.

I disagree. The more extreme strand of Islam wishes to kill us. The mainstream is not violent but finds the ultra liberalism of the current younger generation of Westerners and city dwellers incompatible with their values. This is feeding recruitment by the Jihadis as much as anything else. There has been no reformation in their religion. Look at the persucution of homosexuals and oppression of women in Islamic societies and then think about your definition of extreme.

 

[Dave the OAP]

I disagree. The more extreme strand of Islam wishes to kill us. The mainstream is not violent but finds the ultra liberalism of the current younger generation of Westerners and city dwellers incompatible with their values. This is feeding recruitment by the Jihadis as much as anything else. There has been no reformation in their religion. Look at the persucution of homosexuals and oppression of women in Islamic societies and then think about your definition of extreme.

So we didn't persecute homosexuals until 30odd years ago? Certainly the many muslims I work with in Hounslow and Crawley doesn't find any issues with where western society is going. ...and actually quite a few of them would regard themselves as very orthodox "good"muslims.

 

[cunning fergus]

I have absolutely no idea.

You are not fighting an army, you are fighting an idea...an interpretation of a belief that is totally abhorrent to most of the rest of the Islamic religion and who believe that if you do not follow their own interpretation of said religion, you must be killed. Which of course covers 99% of the worlds population who are therefore targets.

As I said above, I am not a fatalist, however I believe that as long as the security services can catch the big plots and we have secure systems at airports and ports then we have to realise that there will always be the lone nutters out there and we must be vigilant.

To suggest we start rounding up anyone with a dark skin is just plain wrong.

That's probably right, but there is the rub for the likes of Hungary.

Take in a couple of hundred thousand Muslim immigrants as demanded by the EU and they accept the risk of potential Islamic related terrorism, which to combat (to some extent) the Hungarian Govt will need to spend tens of millions of their taxpayers money in beefing up existing security controls.

The UK has to fund programs like prevent and has recruited thousands in security personnel and is monitoring some 30,000 possible jihadis, and yet we know some attacks are clean skins.

Sadiq Khan was right to say terrorism is the cost of living in a big city like London now it's a shame that the electorate were not told that years ago.

Plus ca change.

Hungary et al don't need to be told about it they just need to watch the news.

 

[looney]

But there is a fatal flaw in giraffe's argument. He suggests deporting extremists...but deport them to where? I keep coming back to the 7/7 murderers....they are/ were British...not arabs or middle eastern terrorists.

Both lee Rigby's killers were British born...where would you deport them to?

This is why this situation is impossible to manage and to bring in legislation to bring in internment is not. It didn't work with the IRA although of course with the IRA there was a goal they had which could be negotiated against..i.e. The unification of Ireland, but they realised after an armed struggle they were not going to get it by blowing people up...instead they talked and negotiated and ended up with a power sharing agreement. Unfortunately, the is no common ground with ISIL/ AL Queda to negotiate.

Most are duel nationals. Saudi has deported 1/4 million pakistanis as a crime and security risk.

You don't show weakness as a strategy to people who want to conquer you.

btw This year has just been a taster of what is to come.