Barcelona: Van hits crowds on Ramblas tourist area

[Sweeney Todd]

That's true, and western liberalism is one ingredient, western geopolitical decisions have also contributed to the mix too......thank you Mr Blair.

The problem is however whether it is liberal values, historical geopolitical decisions, basic religious ideology or a combination thereof, the alienation some muslims feel (to a greater or lesser degree) is real.

Countries in the EU that do not have Muslim populations but are being asked to take them in by Germany and France must be thinking......so how did it turn out for you?

My girlfriend is Czech and she does not know of a single compatriot who thinks that their country's accepting Muslim refugees is a good idea.

 

[Wellesley]

Not read the entire thread, just most of it. Anybody able to confirm how many times you've used the "I'm not a racist, but..." line? I counted two. But that was a few hours ago. Presumably you've got the hat-trick up by now and get to keep the match ball. Well done

Once I said that I am not the racist but Islam is. Your opinion means f#ck all to me. You have shown your lack of intelligence enough in you 50,000 plus boring posts.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I think you have this wrong, post second world war I would wager the biggest refugee influx to the UK was the Asians persecuted by idi ami. That episode must have been less than 100k. Other non white migrants who arrived as part of the windrush generation etc were not refugees.......please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong?

As for radicalisation I'm of the view that it is not the internet that radicalises, it is contemporary western liberalism. When muslims arrived in the U.K. in the 50s, 60s and 70s this country was itself conservative (small c), you only have to go back to the furore around the release of the Life of Brian in 1979 where it was banned by some local authorities to understand that.

Culturally then the UK was different but I would contend it was not perceived to morally decadent by muslims.

The generations of muslims born since the 80s are living in a different society to their parents and grandparents, and as they have grown up within conservative Islamic homes, UK society has moved on to where we are now, with (for example) primary school children in Bristol being read stories by Drag Queens to help them understand trans gender issues.

It is these kinds of liberal values that radicalises, and why the UK for many is diametrically opposed to their conservative religious ideology (as it would be UK society a mere 30 years ago). It's why in recent years hundreds of Muslim men have been convicted for sexually exploiting 1000s of white British girls. In short, the girls represent a society they have no respect for. If it was just sex then 1000s of young muslims girls would be victims too. This behaviour was not happening in the period 50-80s.

Put another way do you think Muslim families go to the Mosque on Friday and then get home to watch the Graham Norton show or the one where the contestants stand about starkers talking about strangers knobs and tuppances?

They don't need the internet.....it's on TV and all around them.

I really appreciate your thought behind this post. I think you may be right. As a fairly traditional sort of person, I can identify with the idea that the modern version of the UK is very far removed from it's more traditional point of thirty or so years ago. I would always wish to find peaceful ways to express disapproval with society however i can well believe that these rapid changes are bewildering to people from more rigid parts of society who are more influenced by religion than democracy. Incidentally, I believe your argument can also be applied in some form in relation to Brexit.

 

[Buzzer]

Just spoke to brother in Turku. All safe thank God.

 

[cheshunt seagull]

There is another way. Make it clearer as a society that we do not tolerate intolerance. To take one example, it is not illegal (or thought worthy of comment in the Guardian) for places of worship to only admit one sex and yet golf clubs are routinely named and shamed for doing exactly the same thing. All the while these mixed messages are being sent out there is little incentive for reform and gender equality takes another hit from the very people who are supposed to be most supportive ie the 'left.'

Yes I think that the left (of which I am generally a member) is far too reluctant to call out intolerance exercised in the name of Islam and that we also go to ludicrous lengths to deny the impact of strands of Islamic ideology on terrorism. The challenge is how to do this without adding fuel to attacks on Muslims. I heard a quote on a Sam Harris podcast along the lines of the right getting ti wrong about Muslims and the left getting it wrong about Islam.

 

[pb21]

As for radicalisation I'm of the view that it is not the internet that radicalises, it is contemporary western liberalism.

Your post is interesting.

It's also interesting that you are of the opinion that people are turned to radical Islamic ideas and the desire to kill because of contemporary western liberalism.

Its also said that contemporary western liberalism has led to the situation where Trump is elected in the US and our of own Brexit vote.

 

[The Gem]

My girlfriend is Czech and she does not know of a single compatriot who thinks that their country's accepting Muslim refugees is a good idea.

I can honestly say, I am English and I do not know one person personally who wants the UK to take them in either.

 

[pb21]

I really appreciate your thought behind this post. I think you may be right. As a fairly traditional sort of person, I can identify with the idea that the modern version of the UK is very far removed from it's more traditional point of thirty or so years ago. I would always wish to find peaceful ways to express disapproval with society however i can well believe that these rapid changes are bewildering to people from more rigid parts of society who are more influenced by religion than democracy. Incidentally, I believe your argument can also be applied in some form in relation to Brexit.

Its weird, contemporary western liberalism maybe at the heart of people killing in the name of religion and voting for Brexit.

 

[Giraffe]

I can honestly say, I am English and I do not know one person personally who wants the UK to take them in either.

Ditto just this week I have had four or fve separate conversations with people who will say it one on one but would be too scared to say it in public or a larger group. Everyone is too scared of being called a racist to say the bleeding obvious that radical muslims should be kicked out of the country or imprisoned and new radical muslims should not be allowed in.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Its weird, contemporary western liberalism maybe at the heart of people killing in the name of religion and voting for Brexit.

Yeah. For every action, there's a reaction.

 

[The Gem]

Ditto just this week I have had four or fve separate conversations with people who will say it one on one but would be too scared to say it in public or a larger group. Everyone is too scared of being called a racist to say the bleeding obvious that radical muslims should be kicked out of the country or imprisoned and new radical muslims should not be allowed in.

I agree wholeheartedly with that, I would go as far as to say if you kick them out make all of their family go with them.

Enough is enough.

 

[ManOfSussex]

My girlfriend is Czech and she does not know of a single compatriot who thinks that their country's accepting Muslim refugees is a good idea.

An ex-girlfriend of mine is Czech, she now lives back in Havirov near Ostrava. She has said exactly the same as your girlfriend to me too.

 

[Giraffe]

I agree wholeheartedly with that, I would go as far as to say if you kick them out make all of their family go with them.

Enough is enough.

Agreed. I'd kick out o imprison the family or anyone connected with a known attacker as well.

 

[portlock seagull]

The problem is that hasn't worked as in the case of the nutter who drove the van across Westminster bridge...afterwards, the local people interviewed who knew him at the mosque said they hadn't the faintest idea who was a radical...he actually didn't express any extremist views at all and that was why it was such a surprise.

As we are being told , stopping these plots is getting more and more by chance. If even the local imman doenst realise he has nutters in his congregation, then we are all screwed!

Which lends weight to preventing 'them' whoever that is, coming into our country. Too risky.

 

[The Gem]

Agreed. I'd kick out o imprison the family or anyone connected with a known attacker as well.

I would not imprison them, as we have to pay for them, I would put them in a plane with a parachute and when they are over the country that is their ideal I.e. no where in Europe, open the door and push them out.

 

[Buzzer]

I agree wholeheartedly with that, I would go as far as to say if you kick them out make all of their family go with them.

Enough is enough.

Whilst there are clearly cases where whole families appear to be full of Jihadists, I don't think it's as easy as that. For a start, many of the young men who are picked up by MI5 are because someone in the family has contacted the authorities. If you threaten to kick the entire family out then no-one is going to let on to the security services that they have a radicalised family member.

We've had such a case here in Brighton. One young lad was radicalised and he's now dead (and I'm certainly not going to shed any tears over that) but would it be fair to deport his mother also? Have a read of this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...llege-week-Ibrahim-killed-U-S-bomb-Syria.html

 

[Juan Albion]

I would not imprison them, as we have to pay for them, I would put them in a plane with a parachute and when they are over the country that is their ideal I.e. no where in Europe, open the door and push them out.

Odd, because I thought it was the due process of law that was one of the things that made western civilization better than some others.

 

[The Gem]

Odd, because I thought it was the due process of law that was one of the things that made western civilization better than some others.

We cant beat them with law. That is not a language they understand.

Fight fire with fire.

 

[Juan Albion]

We cant beat them with law. That is not a language they understand.

Fight fire with fire.

Which is exactly their thinking. Well done.

 

[The Gem]

Whilst there are clearly cases where whole families appear to be full of Jihadists, I don't think it's as easy as that. For a start, many of the young men who are picked up by MI5 are because someone in the family has contacted the authorities. If you threaten to kick the entire family out then no-one is going to let on to the security services that they have a radicalised family member.

We've had such a case here in Brighton. One young lad was radicalised and he's now dead (and I'm certainly not going to shed any tears over that) but would it be fair to deport his mother also? Have a read of this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...llege-week-Ibrahim-killed-U-S-bomb-Syria.html

I read all of it. Agreed with you, I did not shed a tear and yes for me I would have sent the whole family packing, just in case another of the family decided to follow suit.

And therein lies the problem, I am English through and through, what are the chances of me ever killing innocent people for a cowardly cause <0%. Can you say the same for her family? No.