Barcelona: Van hits crowds on Ramblas tourist area

[Neville's Breakfast]

Thought we had laws protecting freedom of religion?

Freedom of thought and belief yes and the word 'religion' is used. However when intolerance and fascism hide behind the cloak of 'religion' then we need to move the debate on to boundaries of tolerance. As another example some in this thread have talked about censorship with a presumption that it is automatically bad. However it can protect society from intolerance and evil. We censor ourselves sometimes when in social situations as it the appropriate way to act so it is a social
skill for the good of society. Similarly. In my opinion we cannot promote the rights of a religion which practices intolerance. We have choices to make as a society on both censorship and promotion of religious rights and this is in direct contrast to the rather selfish culture of individual rights embraced by the new Left. Margaret Thatcher would be very proud of the spread of her individualism to the left.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

They all have one thing in common mind.

A list of jihadi terrorists, all have 'one thing in common'?

Thanks Sherlock.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Even so, you'd think there would be far more 'legitimate' targets than Spain, and least of all Barcelona, who generally want nothing to do with Spain.

It's a strange move by IS, because as far as I know Spain haven't been bombing Syria and getting too involved in the Middle East in general in recent times, have they? (I could well be wrong here, but they definitely haven't been one of the main aggressors). It seems to send the message that they'll attack anyone who's 'Western', regardless of their foreign policy, in which case we might as well carry on kicking the shit out of them in the Middle East as they'll still attack us even if we stop. It just seems like a bit of a propaganda own goal to me. They could wreak havoc on the streets of London and New York and say 'Look at Spain, they're not getting involved in the Middle East so we're leaving them alone. Get your country out of our lands and we'll leave you alone too".

Someone being interviewed on BBC Breakfast was saying the attackers seem to use targets that are as cosmopolitan, as possible so multiple nationalities are killed, injured etc, so their propaganda is spread worldwide. Hence, why large cities are being targetted.

 

[Hillian1]

A list of jihadi terrorists, all have 'one thing in common'?

Thanks Sherlock.

I prefer to use the correct definition, which is Islamic terrorists.

 

[Commander]

FWIW I have a personal rule that if I have become involved in a debate (as I did early on in this thread) then I deliberately leave it to others to moderate. You can't referee your own arguments.

You're a fool. I'd just instantly ban anyone from the thread who disagreed with me. What's the point in having power if you can't abuse it?

I think the answer to the "Why would they attack Spain / Sweden / Manchester / Brussels / London?" questions are much more straightforward than some seem to suggest.

All this 'why does ISIS decide this?" and "surely for propaganda they should avoid that?" stuff .

Surely it just comes down to logistics / opportunity / familiarity?

The Brussels (and Paris) attackers were from Belgium.
The London bombers were from up the road in Luton.
The Manchester Arena bomber was from Manchester.
The Stockholm attacker was Swedish.

I honestly doubt there is much (any?) central co-ordination of any of this shit. Just a general directive to their followers / sympathisers to cause carnage wherever and whenever they can. So they commit these atrocities in places they know.

No?

Probably, yes.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Someone being interviewed on BBC Breakfast was saying the attackers seem to use targets that are as cosmopolitan, as possible so multiple nationalities are killed, injured etc, so their propaganda is spread worldwide. Hence, why large cities are being targetted.

That makes sense.

I prefer to use the correct definition, which is Islamic terrorists.

Fine. Clears up any confusion in case we were thinking they were non-Islamic jihadis, I guess.

 

[cheshunt seagull]

Even so, you'd think there would be far more 'legitimate' targets than Spain, and least of all Barcelona, who generally want nothing to do with Spain.

It's a strange move by IS, because as far as I know Spain haven't been bombing Syria and getting too involved in the Middle East in general in recent times, have they? (I could well be wrong here, but they definitely haven't been one of the main aggressors). It seems to send the message that they'll attack anyone who's 'Western', regardless of their foreign policy, in which case we might as well carry on kicking the shit out of them in the Middle East as they'll still attack us even if we stop. It just seems like a bit of a propaganda own goal to me. They could wreak havoc on the streets of London and New York and say 'Look at Spain, they're not getting involved in the Middle East so we're leaving them alone. Get your country out of our lands and we'll leave you alone too".

There have been some pretty clear statements from ISIS that their objective is a global Caliphate and that any state which is not run on these lines is a target. They may choose to prioritise states that are actively fighting them as shorter-term tactical move, to help them secure their position in the Middle East but the long term objective is not about our involvement in their lands; they have designs on everywhere. This is going to be a long fight and the reality is that the only long-term solution lies in other voices in Islam defeating this ideology.

 

[Buzzer]

Thought we had laws protecting freedom of religion?

We may well do but it's not in an British constitution because no such thing exists, likewise 'British' law.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

There have been some pretty clear statements from ISIS that their objective is a global Caliphate and that any state which is not run on these lines is a target. They may choose to prioritise states that are actively fighting them as shorter-term tactical move, to help them secure their position in the Middle East but the long term objective is not about our involvement in their lands; they have designs on everywhere. This is going to be a long fight and the reality is that the only long-term solution lies in other voices in Islam defeating this ideology.

Perhaps, but this strand of Islam has been around for centuries without much sign that the rest of the religion might root it out. We are only noticing because it is now affecting us. A start might be Islamic support for the removal of the death penalty for apostasy and explicit support for female and homosexual freedoms.Unlike many in the West I cannot support the rights of a movement which has fascism at its heart.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I think the answer to the "Why would they attack Spain / Sweden / Manchester / Brussels / London?" questions are much more straightforward than some seem to suggest.

All this 'why does ISIS decide this?" and "surely for propaganda they should avoid that?" stuff .

Surely it just comes down to logistics / opportunity / familiarity?

The Brussels (and Paris) attackers were from Belgium.
The London bombers were from up the road in Luton.
The Manchester Arena bomber was from Manchester.
The Stockholm attacker was Swedish.

I honestly doubt there is much (any?) central co-ordination of any of this shit. Just a general directive to their followers / sympathisers to cause carnage wherever and whenever they can. So they commit these atrocities in places they know.

No?

Agree but two of the Paris attackers were from Iraq and some had travelled back and forth to the middle east.

It's also being reported the CIA warned Spain about a specific risk in the resort two months ago which suggests interception of information from known terrorists.

The only silver lining is they are not as organised or capable (yet) as al Qaeda who were responsible for the train bombings in Madrid.

 

[cheshunt seagull]

Perhaps, but this strand of Islam has been around for centuries without much sign that the rest of the religion might root it out. We are only noticing because it is now affecting us. A start might be Islamic support for the removal of the death penalty for apostasy and explicit support for female and homosexual freedoms.Unlike many in the West I cannot support the rights of a movement which has fascism at its heart.

I would agree that there is still apparently widespread support (or at least insufficient evidence of opposition to) things like penalties for apostasy and that this provides little re-assurance that a 'reformation' movement is imminent. However I don't see any other way that it can ever be defeated except from within and we should concentrate efforts on supporting more reformist movements like Quilliam.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Agree but two of the Paris attackers were from Iraq and some had travelled back and forth to the middle east.

For sure - just as the Manchester Arena shit was first generation British-Syrian and had traveled back and forth to Syria.

My only point is that WHERE they attack is often (IMO) simply just where they know, and where they have the opportunity (rather than any grand masterplan).

 

[Hillian1]

That makes sense.



Fine. Clears up any confusion in case we were thinking they were non-Islamic jihadis, I guess.

You are deliberately missing my point.

You say they are from Luton/Sweden/Belgium/Manchester, they would say they are Soldiers of the Caliphate with no allegiance whatsoever to the countries they are from or live in.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

You are deliberately missing my point.

You say they are from Luton/Sweden/Belgium/Manchester, they would say they are Soldiers of the Caliphate with no allegiance whatsoever to the countries they are from or live in.

Not in the slightest. Seriously.

Read the post in context. I was replying to a point about why Spain might have been specifically targeted. Nothing more.

 

[Commander]

The only silver lining is they are not as organised or capable (yet) as al Qaeda who were responsible for the train bombings in Madrid.

I think that makes it more scary in some ways. It takes a lot of organisation to do something like the Madrid train bombings or the 9/11 attacks, and 99 times out of 100 the security services seem to be able to stop it happening. These vehicle attacks take virtually no organisation, and are almost impossible to stop.

 

[Hillian1]

Not in the slightest. Seriously.

Read the post in context. I was replying to a point about why Spain might have been specifically targeted. Nothing more.

Spain is a target because Spain is a country with Western values and democracy, something radical Islam wants to expunge from this world.

That's it, nothing more. They wish us dead, all of us.

 

[carlzeiss]

I think the answer to the "Why would they attack Spain / Sweden / Manchester / Brussels / London?" questions are much more straightforward than some seem to suggest.

All this 'why does ISIS decide this?" and "surely for propaganda they should avoid that?" stuff .

Surely it just comes down to logistics / opportunity / familiarity?

The Brussels (and Paris) attackers were from Belgium.
The London bombers were from up the road in Luton.
The Manchester Arena bomber was from Manchester.
The Stockholm attacker was Swedish.

I honestly doubt there is much (any?) central co-ordination of any of this shit. Just a general directive to their followers / sympathisers to cause carnage wherever and whenever they can. So they commit these atrocities in places they know.

No?

Eastern Europe has been relatively free from similar incidents so far although the EU is keen to change that .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40259268

EU targets Poland, Hungary and Czechs for not taking refugees


The EU has begun legal action against against Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic for refusing to accept refugees under a 2015 solidarity plan.

Migration Commissioner Dimitris Avramopoulos said the three countries had ignored "repeated calls" from the EU's executive to take their share.

Only 20,869 of the 160,000 refugees have so far been relocated in the EU.

The three states could be referred to the European Court of Justice (ECJ) and eventually face heavy fines.

The relocation plan was conceived in response to the large influx of migrants and refugees in 2015, in an attempt to relieve pressure on frontline states, mainly Greece and Italy, where the vast majority of migrants were arriving.

EU countries agreed to relocate 160,000 asylum-seekers between them - though Romania, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary voted against accepting mandatory quotas. Hungary and Slovakia challenged the quota last month in the ECJ.

While the UK and Ireland were exempt from the original 2015 proposal, Poland's previous government backed the plan, although its current Eurosceptic administration has since rejected it.

The Czech Republic has accepted only 12 of the 2,000 it had been designated, while Hungary and Poland have received none.

Hungary to detain all asylum seekers in border camps
EU leaders agree plan to stop Libya influx
Greece's refugee children learn the hard way

"I regret to see that despite our repeated calls to pledge to relocate, the Czech Republic, Hungary, and Poland have not yet taken the necessary action," Mr Avramopoulos, told journalists.

"For this reason, the Commission has decided to launch infringement procedures against these three member states. I sincerely hope that these member states can still reconsider their position and contribute fairly."
'Dysfunctional' system

But Poland has already signalled it will not fall into line with the quota.

"Each decision to relocate groups of migrants encourages thousands or millions more at the borders of Europe, to come to Europe, to get on boats and pontoons and risk their lives to reach the European continent," said Polish government spokesman Rafal Bochenek.

Czech Prime Minister Bohuslav Sobotka stressed that his country too would not take part either, "with regard to the worsened security situation in Europe and dysfunctionality of the quota system".

The quotas were based on the size and wealth of each country, but Austria and Denmark have so far not taken in any refugees either. Despite the small number of refugees relocated from Italy and Greece, the European Commission says the pace has quickened since January.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I think that makes it more scary in some ways. It takes a lot of organisation to do something like the Madrid train bombings or the 9/11 attacks, and 99 times out of 100 the security services seem to be able to stop it happening. These vehicle attacks take virtually no organisation, and are almost impossible to stop.

Indeed the security services have a fiendishly difficult job. Plus of course, it often turns out that many of the perpetrators are known to the security services but there are so many on watch lists/people of concern that it's virtually impossible to monitor them all.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I would agree that there is still apparently widespread support (or at least insufficient evidence of opposition to) things like penalties for apostasy and that this provides little re-assurance that a 'reformation' movement is imminent. However I don't see any other way that it can ever be defeated except from within and we should concentrate efforts on supporting more reformist movements like Quilliam.

There is another way. Make it clearer as a society that we do not tolerate intolerance. To take one example, it is not illegal (or thought worthy of comment in the Guardian) for places of worship to only admit one sex and yet golf clubs are routinely named and shamed for doing exactly the same thing. All the while these mixed messages are being sent out there is little incentive for reform and gender equality takes another hit from the very people who are supposed to be most supportive ie the 'left.'

 

[Wellesley]

How about we ban the slaughter of un-stunned animals. Halal meat is inhumane yet many of us eat it unknowingly.