Barber On The Warpath Over Train Disruption, Doesn't Pull Any Punches!

[pearl]

What all of us should remember is a strike is pointless if it doesn't affect anyone. The most successful strikes are the ones that cause the most disruption.
The biggest villain in all this is the Government, they were quick to take the Prison Officers to court, because it impacted something they were directly responsible for, but, they are more than willing to see this dispute rumble on . It makes me think they have an anti Union hidden agenda

of course .... they are waiting for ASLEF now

 

[Bozza]

apart from being wrong with everything you've written here

You think this is wrong:

"What is inexcusable is Southern giving the club absolutely no warning of this whatsoever that there was a risk to the services. As the club have said, had they known, then they'd have taken extra contingency measures."

To simply blame the RMT and 'disgruntled workers'

Where did I do that?

"My take is that both Southern and the RMT are largely as bad as each other."

the managers who resource the crews etc at short notice

So, contrary to what [MENTION=12656]Pantani[/MENTION] wrote above, staff are rustled up at short notice, on occasion, to fill these rota gaps?

 

[Ernest]

Another thing that could be happening is that SASTA no longer wish to provide a train service to the AMEX on match days due to the cost and little return from doing so . When all the people used to come on here and boast about not paying to get there and some of us said at the time it could end with SASTA wanting out, for what they receive from the match ticket add on and what each match day costs in additional staffing costs etc the RMT dispute may be giving them the smokescreen they need to give notice.

 

[Ernest]

You think this is wrong:

"What is inexcusable is Southern giving the club absolutely no warning of this whatsoever that there was a risk to the services. As the club have said, had they known, then they'd have taken extra contingency measures."



Where did I do that?

"My take is that both Southern and the RMT are largely as bad as each other."



So, contrary to what [MENTION=12656]Pantani[/MENTION] wrote above, staff are rustled up at short notice, on occasion, to fill these rota gaps?

I think Messrs Barber & Perry know exactly what went on last Friday and where the fault lies

 

[bhanutz]

**** the RMT!

 

[El Presidente]

**** the RMT!

Ahh.........the voice of well thought out, considered reason, focussing on the facts.

 

[beorhthelm]

, those shifts do not get filled at the last minute. People are not doing their allotted eight hour shift then going "You know what I will stay for that other eight hour shift as well". People have to sign up for those shifts in advance. Southern are not sitting there each day waiting for a bunch of guards to say yes they will stay on for a bit longer.

making a lot of (sensible) assumptions in there, when the evidence of how Southern run the service and how impact to shortages are random and immediate, suggest that this is how the rail rota is being run. maybe one of our train friends can confirm or deny? look at the known facts: they didn't have cover, didn't notify the club, even saying they would put on service in the afternoon, then pear shaped. when trains were cancelled a few weekends ago the station staff said it was because the roaster wasnt filled. seems like they rely on late confirmation of overtime.

 

[bhanutz]

Ahh.........the voice of well thought out, considered reason, focussing on the facts.

Absolutely...And that is my opinion!

 

[Ernest]

making a lot of (sensible) assumptions in there, when the evidence of how Southern run the service and how impact to shortages are random and immediate, suggest that this is how the rail rota is being run. maybe one of our train friends can confirm or deny? look at the known facts: they didn't have cover, didn't notify the club, even saying they would put on service in the afternoon, then pear shaped. when trains were cancelled a few weekends ago the station staff said it was because the roaster wasnt filled. seems like they rely on late confirmation of overtime.

Pantani is basically correct, SASTA know who would be available for overtime 7 days in advance, they knew Wednesday that they had big problems running the service Friday night and they knew but Friday afternoon that it was f**ked, nothing happened at the last moment to make what happened happen

 

[Yoda]

**** the RMT!

I've noticed that is all you ever seem to contribute to these threads lately, even though there has been no foul play by the RMT in this instance, just incompetent management.

 

[Bozza]

making a lot of (sensible) assumptions in there, when the evidence of how Southern run the service and how impact to shortages are random and immediate, suggest that this is how the rail rota is being run. maybe one of our train friends can confirm or deny? look at the known facts: they didn't have cover, didn't notify the club, even saying they would put on service in the afternoon, then pear shaped. when trains were cancelled a few weekends ago the station staff said it was because the roaster wasnt filled. seems like they rely on late confirmation of overtime.

Clearly it happens, as [MENTION=1416]Ernest[/MENTION] confirmed for us just now:

The numbers of staff willing to do overtime before that start has always been low, less than 30% would make themselves available to work on their days off so when this number is lower as staff no longer wish to work extra shifts due to what is going on then it becomes impossible and finally if the managers who resource the crews etc at short notice are so pissed off with the likes of Horton, Doll, Foulds et al and they won't bother crews at home etc anymore then you get the perfect storm which happened Friday.

He seems to like to make me out as some sort of SASTA apologist, but nothing could be further from the truth.

As I've already said, SASTA's lack of communication with the club is contemptible and inexcusable.

What I'm interested in is the lead up to how this happened. To my mind, there are only really two scenarios in play:

1. SASTA genuinely thought they could run most/all of these services, whether staffed by managers or by, as [MENTION=1416]Ernest[/MENTION] highlights, calling people in. That assumption turned out to be wrong, naive and/or foolish.

2. SASTA never had any intention of running those services.

I'm not sure why they'd intentionally try to go through scenario 2 as it would never end well for them.

 

[beorhthelm]

Pantani is basically correct, SASTA know who would be available for overtime 7 days in advance, they knew Wednesday that they had big problems running the service Friday night and they knew but Friday afternoon that it was f**ked, nothing happened at the last moment to make what happened happen

so they just didn't tell the Club, or were hoping managers could cover at the last minute?

 

[Yoda]

Clearly it happens, as [MENTION=1416]Ernest[/MENTION] confirmed for us just now:



He seems to like to make me out as some sort of SASTA apologist, but nothing could be further from the truth.

As I've already said, SASTA's lack of communication with the club is contemptible and inexcusable.

What I'm interested in is the lead up to how this happened. To my mind, there are only really two scenarios in play:

1. SASTA genuinely thought they could run most/all of these services, whether staffed by managers or by, as [MENTION=1416]Ernest[/MENTION] highlights, calling people in. That assumption turned out to be wrong, naive and/or foolish.

2. SASTA never had any intention of running those services.

I'm not sure why they'd intentionally try to go through scenario 2 as it would never end well for them.

And if number 1, with the amount of services cancelled across the network (not just Brighton to Lewes) they would've known how short they would've been well before the commute TO the stadium.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

The longer this goes on, the more I can see the club suing Southern (and GTR) for Breach of Contract

Hard to see it going any other way now. Southern don't want to know. They have been allowed to get away with complete lack of accountability for so long now that they just seem to take it for granted. They can run the trains exactly as they see fit, with no comeback.

Even individual Sussex-based commuters are mobilising to take these people to court now. https://www.crowdjustice.org/case/southernrail/

Said it before, say it again: this ridiculously failing company may well have the government in its back pocket, but it won't have the courts in its back pocket. And the Albion could maybe do a bit of crowdjustice of it's own - maybe by, say, diverting the monies paid to Southern into forming a legal case - to bring these people finally to account. Bring it on!

 

[Yoda]

so they just didn't tell the Club, or were hoping managers could cover at the last minute?

Probably the latter, but as they are only partially trained (I believe), maybe didn't what to be in charge with the heavier flow of traffic if something went wrong (as in an Accident).

 

[Ernest]

Clearly it happens, as [MENTION=1416]Ernest[/MENTION] confirmed for us just now:

He seems to like to make me out as some sort of SASTA apologist, but nothing could be further from the truth.

As I've already said, SASTA's lack of communication with the club is contemptible and inexcusable.

What I'm interested in is the lead up to how this happened. To my mind, there are only really two scenarios in play:

1. SASTA genuinely thought they could run most/all of these services, whether staffed by managers or by, as [MENTION=1416]Ernest[/MENTION] highlights, calling people in. That assumption turned out to be wrong, naive and/or foolish.

2. SASTA never had any intention of running those services.

I'm not sure why they'd intentionally try to go through scenario 2 as it would never end well for them.

And I would say I really wouldn't know the answer, they would have known by 4pm or earlier on Friday that the staff whoever they were would not be available to run the booked service and even on the Wednesday they could have warned the club and supporters to make alternative arrangements as things weren't looking good.
Option 2 opens up a completely new can of worms and would need Barber and Perry to investigate that.

 

[AK74]

Question(s) for [MENTION=1416]Ernest[/MENTION].

Is there a limit to the amount of overtime which can be worked? I'm thinking that if staff cover(ed) shifts far in excess of their core contractual hours, fatigue will inevitably set-in at some point, and the likelihood of safety-impacting mistakes increases. Is there a rail company mechanism to ensure employees avoid doing too much?

(This might all be EU Working Time Directive stuff, but it's a long time since I looked at the legislation)

 

[KNC]

Basically, you must have 12hrs off between off between shifts, and not work more than 13 days consecutively.
WTD does come into it, but most come from the Hidden report, post Clapham disaster.

 

[The Albion Roar]

The longer this goes on, the more I can see the club suing Southern (and GTR) for Breach of Contract

A point not ruled out by Barber on the Roar a few weeks ago.

 

[pearl]

**** the RMT!

you'll break your keyboard!