[Football] Banter - just an excuse for otherwise socially unacceptable behaviour

[Springal]

The goalkeeper coach speaking to her in a Caribbean accent

 

[severnside gull]

This thread appears to have come a long way from highlighting the excuse of "bantz" to freely abuse people becoming unacceptably endemic, to providing a platform for ex-servicemen to compare experiences.
Now personally I wouldn't confuse military cameraderie with (to quote The Donald) Locker Room Talk but as the father of a former Marine I'm delighted to laud all who've served.

 

[spring hall convert]

Did Aluko complain to the FA as a first or a last resort?

Aluko didn't 'complain to the FA.' She was asked to contribute to an supposedly confidential, FA initiated, 'culture review.' As it was confidential she was honest about her experiences with the manager. A week later she was dropped.

 

[AmexRuislip]

That sounds more like a famous five book than the military

I was being a bit reserved with the rest of the types of things that happened

 

[Goldstone1976]

What.positions were you interviewing for ?

It was when I was at a major MOD supplier - hence the interest in employing ex-military folk. The positions ranged from supervisory, through middle management and a handful of senior managers. All had customer contact - some in delivery, some in sales, some in account management.

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

During the height of the BSE crisis in the UK, I went to France to visit a (French) friend of mine. Before I set off for France, he joked: “Don’t go bringing that Mad Cow Disease over here with you.” Did I take that as racist joke? Did I heck?

With all due respect.......

 

[Hastings gull]

The problem with banter is that it is all very well when everyone is comfortable with it but, as we have seen on here and elsewhere, as soon as any one objects then they are told that they have no sense of humour or they should "man up and stop being a snowflake." A lot of banter is used, whether purposefully or not, to establish social hierarchies, a bit like baboons mooning each other. It is the absolute purpose of some, maybe most, banter to (however slightly) belittle others in a group and enhance the social credentials of the banterer.

Like baboon bum brandishing it is usually fairly harmless but when there is already an in-built power imbalance then the banter can become toxic as the person being belittled has no real recourse to banter back and if they don't "laugh along" then they can be seen as stuck-up or overly precious. Often (as might be the case with Mark Sampson) the banterer doesn't even realise what they are doing.

Many years ago I was a restaurant manager - I was very young, inexperienced and, as it turns out, stupid. I had employed a fantastic waitress, she was hard-working, accurate and the customers loved her. She was also quiet and reserved. I assumed that she realised that I thought she was brilliant and so felt quite happy having a bit of "banter" with her - if she dropped a teaspoon, for example, I would make a big deal of it in an amusingly over-the-top way because she so rarely made any mistakes at all.

One day the waitress came to me and resigned - I was shocked and asked her why. She said that part of the reason was that I was always picking on her and constantly criticising her. I had thought that I was a hilarious boss driving the banter bus and keeping everyone motivated with my up beat ironic quips whereas I was in fact making one of my best employees so miserable that she left. I still feel embarrassed and ashamed that I had so fundamently mis-judged the situation and am therefore vary wary when people excuse things by saying "it was just banter" or "I was only having a laugh".

Fascinating post -thanks. Obviously it is hard to comment on what was exactly said and context, but might it be that she was being overly and unreasonably sensitive? Afterall you state that she rarely made a mistake and yet she said you were always picking on her -this doesn't quite add up.

 

[AmexRuislip]

Yes mate., joined up in nov 82 aged 17 , grenadier guards.

I work with a guy who's ex GG.

 

[AmexRuislip]

It was when I was at a major MOD supplier - hence the interest in employing ex-military folk. The positions ranged from supervisory, through middle management and a handful of senior managers. All had customer contact - some in delivery, some in sales, some in account management.

Did you ever supply bubbles for spirit levels, sky hooks or tartan paint?

 

[dingodan]

If I had a mate or work colleague that had been on business to Nigeria during the Ebola virus crisis, and I remarked to him " You best not have brought back any of that ebola with you" I highly doubt any offence would be taken.

The fact that this is classed as a racist joke is pathetic in my view. Yes, making that joke to Aluko in relation to her family was not wise, it isn't racist. The FA should have given him a verbal warning in relation to silly comments and that might have nipped it in the bud.

I completely agree, I might have said something similar, and I would have said it to anyone, white or black. It just isn't racist. Unless there is something else he said which I haven't heard about, this just looks like a witch hunt to me.

 

[McTavish]

Fascinating post -thanks. Obviously it is hard to comment on what was exactly said and context, but might it be that she was being overly and unreasonably sensitive? Afterall you state that she rarely made a mistake and yet she said you were always picking on her -this doesn't quite add up.

Exactly what was said and the context are irrelevant, the whole point is that whether she was being very sensitive or not, what I perceived as "banter" she perceived as victimisation. I was trying to be a fun boss by "having a laugh" and achieved the exact opposite.

People's perceptions of banter can be very different and most of the differences can be explained by who has the power in any given relationship.

 

[spring hall convert]

Fascinating post -thanks. Obviously it is hard to comment on what was exactly said and context, but might it be that she was being overly and unreasonably sensitive? Afterall you state that she rarely made a mistake and yet she said you were always picking on her -this doesn't quite add up.

I'm not really sure what good being in the right according to some arbitrary scale of acceptable sensitivity is in this situation....

This is what makes me laugh when people have a go at PC. PC at its core is trying not to cause offence to people so when I hear people having a go at it it seems to me that they are arguing we should all try to cause more offence to people.

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

I completely agree, I might have said something similar, and I would have said it to anyone, white or black. It just isn't racist. Unless there is something else he said which I haven't heard about, this just looks like a witch hunt to me.

Absolutely dingo, and as mentioned above, Aluko being talked to in a Caribbean accent is surely just another part of this unjust witch hunt, in the same way that Sampson saying to Drew Spence that her or some of her family must have been arrested before is also not worthy of all this investigation stuff. I wonder why the FA even bothered making an apology. Surely it's just a case of snowflakes being precious, isn't it (here come the dots) ....?

 

[Hastings gull]

Exactly what was said and the context are irrelevant, the whole point is that whether she was being very sensitive or not, what I perceived as "banter" she perceived as victimisation. I was trying to be a fun boss by "having a laugh" and achieved the exact opposite.

People's perceptions of banter can be very different and most of the differences can be explained by who has the power in any given relationship.

Of course you are right about different perceptions and doubtless power may have something to do with it. Yes, she may well have misinterpreted your jokes, but what I was trying to say was that you should not necessarily beat yourself up over it. Some folk can be unreasonably sensitive and take correctness far too far. Might it be that she was determined to be the victim? You were there, I wasn't -I am just surmising and suggesting that the joker is not always at fault. Have you now changed your manner so that you don't joke with anyone at all for fear of "victimising" someone?

 

[Wrong-Direction]

Well this thread has helped absolutely nothing

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

 

[Hastings gull]

I'm not really sure what good being in the right according to some arbitrary scale of acceptable sensitivity is in this situation....

This is what makes me laugh when people have a go at PC. PC at its core is trying not to cause offence to people so when I hear people having a go at it it seems to me that they are arguing we should all try to cause more offence to people.

Don't be so stupid - you can argue that PC has gone mad and also disapprove of giving offence -they are not mutually exclusive. There is such a thing as correctness and rightly so, as we should all avoid trying to give offence to others. But, as we both know, there are in all walks of life fanatics determined to be offended, come what may, with its risks for free speech, and with the inevitable result that you are frightened to speak out, for fear of offending people That is how you end up with situations like we have witnessed in Rotherham -doubtless someone just like you would have been desperately offended when the dreadful accusation was made that white girls were being targeted by Asian men. How could they have said such a thing?

 

[Sweeney Todd]

If I had a mate or work colleague that had been on business to Nigeria during the Ebola virus crisis, and I remarked to him " You best not have brought back any of that ebola with you" I highly doubt any offence would be taken.

The fact that this is classed as a racist joke is pathetic in my view. Yes, making that joke to Aluko in relation to her family was not wise, it isn't racist. The FA should have given him a verbal warning in relation to silly comments and that might have nipped it in the bud.

My point exactly…

People should not be so ready to assume that a joke made by a white man at a black woman must be racist. The worst that Mark Sampson should be accused of is cultural insensitivity, or insulting somebody else’s country or country of origin, or bullying.

Imagine that South Africa suffered an outbreak of Ebola, and that a black British boss told a white South African employee in her charge not to return to the UK, from a trip to South Africa, with Ebola. Most people would rule out a racial motive, because, apparently, black people cannot be racist towards white people. In this scenario, people would say that the boss was speaking insensitively about the other’s country, but no racial motive would be imputed.

 

[GT49er]

Absolutely dingo, and as mentioned above, Aluko being talked to in a Caribbean accent is surely just another part of this unjust witch hunt, in the same way that Sampson saying to Drew Spence that her or some of her family must have been arrested before is also not worthy of all this investigation stuff. I wonder why the FA even bothered making an apology. Surely it's just a case of snowflakes being precious, isn't it (here come the dots) ....?

Surely referring to people of colour as snowflakes is racist?

 

[Cheeky Monkey]

Surely referring to people of colour as snowflakes is racist?

Why bother posting that?

 

[dingodan]

Absolutely dingo, and as mentioned above, Aluko being talked to in a Caribbean accent is surely just another part of this unjust witch hunt, in the same way that Sampson saying to Drew Spence that her or some of her family must have been arrested before is also not worthy of all this investigation stuff. I wonder why the FA even bothered making an apology. Surely it's just a case of snowflakes being precious, isn't it (here come the dots) ....?

Like I said, unless there was something I hadn't heard about. I hadn't heard about those things. We do have a problem to precious snowflakes, but if what you say is true, then this isn't that. Fair play.