[Football] Banter - just an excuse for otherwise socially unacceptable behaviour

[GT49er]

It's quite worrying actually that you're unwilling to agree that there's a few bad eggs in your ranks, its like me saying there's no such thing as rouge traders.

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Well, I've never seen a rouge trader!

 

[LlcoolJ]

Well, I've never seen a rouge trainer!

 

[JCL666]

The problem with banter is that it is all very well when everyone is comfortable with it but, as we have seen on here and elsewhere, as soon as any one objects then they are told that they have no sense of humour or they should "man up and stop being a snowflake." A lot of banter is used, whether purposefully or not, to establish social hierarchies, a bit like baboons mooning each other. It is the absolute purpose of some, maybe most, banter to (however slightly) belittle others in a group and enhance the social credentials of the banterer.

Like baboon bum brandishing it is usually fairly harmless but when there is already an in-built power imbalance then the banter can become toxic as the person being belittled has no real recourse to banter back and if they don't "laugh along" then they can be seen as stuck-up or overly precious. Often (as might be the case with Mark Sampson) the banterer doesn't even realise what they are doing.

Many years ago I was a restaurant manager - I was very young, inexperienced and, as it turns out, stupid. I had employed a fantastic waitress, she was hard-working, accurate and the customers loved her. She was also quiet and reserved. I assumed that she realised that I thought she was brilliant and so felt quite happy having a bit of "banter" with her - if she dropped a teaspoon, for example, I would make a big deal of it in an amusingly over-the-top way because she so rarely made any mistakes at all.

One day the waitress came to me and resigned - I was shocked and asked her why. She said that part of the reason was that I was always picking on her and constantly criticising her. I had thought that I was a hilarious boss driving the banter bus and keeping everyone motivated with my up beat ironic quips whereas I was in fact making one of my best employees so miserable that she left. I still feel embarrassed and ashamed that I had so fundamently mis-judged the situation and am therefore vary wary when people excuse things by saying "it was just banter" or "I was only having a laugh".

That is a good post.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

The problem with banter is that it is all very well when everyone is comfortable with it but, as we have seen on here and elsewhere, as soon as any one objects then they are told that they have no sense of humour or they should "man up and stop being a snowflake." A lot of banter is used, whether purposefully or not, to establish social hierarchies, a bit like baboons mooning each other. It is the absolute purpose of some, maybe most, banter to (however slightly) belittle others in a group and enhance the social credentials of the banterer.

Like baboon bum brandishing it is usually fairly harmless but when there is already an in-built power imbalance then the banter can become toxic as the person being belittled has no real recourse to banter back and if they don't "laugh along" then they can be seen as stuck-up or overly precious. Often (as might be the case with Mark Sampson) the banterer doesn't even realise what they are doing.

Many years ago I was a restaurant manager - I was very young, inexperienced and, as it turns out, stupid. I had employed a fantastic waitress, she was hard-working, accurate and the customers loved her. She was also quiet and reserved. I assumed that she realised that I thought she was brilliant and so felt quite happy having a bit of "banter" with her - if she dropped a teaspoon, for example, I would make a big deal of it in an amusingly over-the-top way because she so rarely made any mistakes at all.

One day the waitress came to me and resigned - I was shocked and asked her why. She said that part of the reason was that I was always picking on her and constantly criticising her. I had thought that I was a hilarious boss driving the banter bus and keeping everyone motivated with my up beat ironic quips whereas I was in fact making one of my best employees so miserable that she left. I still feel embarrassed and ashamed that I had so fundamently mis-judged the situation and am therefore vary wary when people excuse things by saying "it was just banter" or "I was only having a laugh".

Totally agree. Historically I have had problems with people taking seriously things I had said in jest - fairly inoculum comments too and nothing to do with any reasons for discrimination. I now almost always say "I was joking".

 

[GT49er]

View attachment 90323

Bugger! Too slow to edit!

 

[alfredmizen]

The military style banter, if you could call it that, is a totally different world to the Mickey taking I experience these days.
An example would be as soft as turning a cap badge upside down on the hat/beret, shampoo in boots, bed packs being glued together, to the extremes of throwing cold water over someone if their personal hygiene wasn't up to scratch.

That sounds more like a famous five book than the military

 

[alfredmizen]

My mate joined the Paras when he was 18 and after his training came back a right arrogant sh.t.
He bought a mate back with him who was even cockier. We ended up falling out and having an almighty scrap.
I was younger but 6ft 4in by then so he came 2nd. He was embarrassed more than hurt.

That is not typical of other soldiers or military men I have met though. Nearly all of them have been good stand up guys.
If fact I can’t think of any ex military boys I dislike. I even have a soft spot for Alfred on here.
Maybe it’s the younger ones W-D.

 

[swindonseagull]

Your naivety is laughable.

FYI. WW2 is not the only war that the UK has been involved in, we are still fighting today.

Your limp attempts at humour are a shameful.

It may not be a world war when you need help, it maybe when you are on a bus, tube or just walking in the street like Lee Rigby was.

2016 was the first year no UK military were killed in action since 1968.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_casualties_of_war
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...rst-year-since-1968-no-one-killed-operations/

 

[alfredmizen]

As an ex-service man or soldier as you put it, if you ever want to come and say this to my face let me know.

You need to calm down mate , dont take the bait.

 

[alfredmizen]

Interesting. That's consistent with my experience of employing ex-Military folk, which can be summarised as:

Ex-Marine - all outstanding
Ex-Para - all interviewed well, but failed to fit in after employment
Ex-Household Division - all failed at interview
All other units - no pattern

HR told me that there was sufficient data to draw conclusions about likely suitability and hence to take the unit into account when drawing up interview lists. I never approved that policy on principle, but it was interesting.

What.positions were you interviewing for ?

 

[The Gem]

2016 was the first year no UK military were killed in action since 1968.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_casualties_of_war
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...rst-year-since-1968-no-one-killed-operations/

Now that is an unbelievable but very sad stat. Long may it continue.

 

[The Gem]

You need to calm down mate , dont take the bait.

I know, you are right.

 

[alfredmizen]

I know, you are right.

What.are/were you in anyway mate ?

 

[The Gem]

What.are/were you in anyway mate ?

Royal Signals, Was September 79C intake in Harrogate. 2 months after my 16th Birthday.

Lost some good men along the way.

Do/did you serve?

 

[alfredmizen]

Royal Signals, Was September 79C intake in Harrogate. 2 months after my 16th Birthday.

Lost some good men along the way.

Do/did you serve?

Yes mate., joined up in nov 82 aged 17 , grenadier guards.

 

[BigBod]

You wanna see some of the 'closed' military, ex military groups on Facebook, would make your toes curl...lol... I generally find it is a total waste of time trying to explain military life to a civvie, they will never ever get it. Ex RN (Senior Service)

 

[The Gem]

Yes mate., joined up in nov 82 aged 17 , grenadier guards.

Nice one, Love the guards.

 

[Meade's Ball]

I made the partial mistake today of ending a call, putting myself on make busy and not noticing that the other person hadn't actually hung up, whilst I nattered for a few moments. During my make busy time, I said to my team leader, from what I remember, little comments such as "a midget isn't a toy" and "that would be undoubtedly your cumface". I reckon the person had put the phone down, if not hung up, but the fear lurks in me still, as well as the mild amusement to it.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

Yes mate., joined up in nov 82 aged 17 , grenadier guards.

Did you play the drums at the back?

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[Sweeney Todd]

But that's kind of the point isn't it? Your equivalency with what your mate said taken in isolation isn't helpful. This is about context, personality, relationship and precedent as much as some hard and fast rule that proves definitely what was said was or wasn't racist.

As I said earlier, I do not know the precise circumstances of the case in question. Did Mark Sampson have a good working relationship with Eni Aluko? Was the comment in question a one-off, or did Sampson have a habit of making similar remarks? Did Aluko complain to the FA as a first or a last resort?

If someone – my boss, or whoever else – were to speak to me in a way that I found objectionable, I would speak to them in private and politely express my feelings, in the hope and the expectation that they would agree to be more sensitive to my feelings in future, and I would give them the benefit of the doubt if they assured me that no offence had been intended. Only if they continued wilfully to make offensive comments would I take the matter to the appropriate authority.