[News] Baby murder nurse case

[ManOfSussex]

Thank you mate. It was a pathetic little niggle of mine. After seeing the care and life saving support the little legend got (she had no bum / body - just a weird 3lbs head with legs ) that silly niggle soon went. Absolutely fantastic people who do way more for the world that me. A sobering moment in our lives!

As I understand it, if you're going into labour in this part of the county and an ambulance is called/it's a bit more serious, its down to capacity and resources at the time whether it's Hastings or up the A21 and over the border to Pembury.

 

[Weststander]

There was an anti NHS narrative in parts of the Nicky Campbell phone in this morning. This nurse somehow shows some that the NHS 'cannot be trusted'. 'Questions are being asked' about whether we 'can trust the NHS'. I found this rather disturbing.

Conversely, there was a weird counter reaction on LBC this afternoon. Socially minded/kind Shelagh Fogarty faced a few “Ah, so people want to kick the NHS” after callers talked about unacceptable actions in maternity wards, their infants dying and cover ups.

Either thick or trying to make it (yawn) the NHS sacred cow … victims were talking devastating errors, a lack of compassion and cover ups by management. Not a slur on all the good people eg the consultants who identified Letby as a wrongun.

 

[Sheebo]

As I understand it, if you're going into labour in this part of the county and an ambulance is called/it's a bit more serious, its down to capacity and resources at the time whether it's Hastings or up the A21 and over the border to Pembury.

Yes there’s various options. My other child was born in Eastbourne but that’s gone now I think. Pembury were absolutely superb I have to say. Very calm and don’t make you feel anything’s ‘wrong’ as such. I will always remember them putting an oxygen mask on our baby and telling me she was being lazy with her breathing. Exactly the right thing to say to make you not panic. I will always be a great supporter of the NHS and all those who work within those sectors. It’s just a shame there was a big bus saying how much extra the NHS would get if we left the EU - which turned out to be erm… bollocks!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Conversely, there was a weird counter reaction on LBC this afternoon. Socially minded/kind Shelagh Fogarty faced a few “Ah, so people want to kick the NHS” after callers talked about unacceptable actions in maternity wards, their infants dying and cover ups.

Either thick or trying to make it (yawn) the NHS sacred cow … victims were talking devastating errors, a lack of compassion and cover ups by management. Not a slur on all the good people eg the consultants who identified Letby as a wrongun.

Give it another day or so and it will become part of the culture war.

The irony is that 30 years ago consultants were a law unto themselves, unsackable. Bringing in non medic managers was meant to stop them marking their own homework.

But if the managers are on bonuses that are affected if 'failings' come to light then it becomes them, rather than the consultants, who start to protect 'their own'.

The reality is that performance and data can identify when there is negligence or worse. It did so in this case, and the consultants were keen to act. One hopes the same would have been the case were it that the likely cause of the four fold increase in deaths was a doctor rather than a nurse.

None of this has anything to do with 'the NHS' as such however. It has all to do with perverse incentives and a toxic cover up culture (in this case, due to managers) that could arise in any organization. Perhaps they are better at covering up in private hospitals. Albeit private hospitals tend to steer clear of life-threatening issues (and have been known to call 999 when things get tricky) and it is that much harder to get away with murdering an old tosser like me having elective knee surgery than a premature baby.

 

[Weststander]

Give it another day or so and it will become part of the culture war.

The irony is that 30 years ago consultants*** were a law unto themselves, unsackable. Bringing in non medic managers was meant to stop them marking their own homework.

But if the managers are on bonuses that are affected if 'failings' come to light then it becomes them, rather than the consultants, who start to protect 'their own'.

The reality is that performance and data can identify when there is negligence or worse. It did so in this case, and the consultants were keen to act. One hopes the same would have been the case were it that the likely cause of the four fold increase in deaths was a doctor rather than a nurse.

None of this has anything to do with 'the NHS' as such however. It has all to do with perverse incentives and a toxic cover up culture (in this case, due to managers) that could arise in any organization. Perhaps they are better at covering up in private hospitals. Albeit private hospitals tend to steer clear of life-threatening issues (and have been known to call 999 when things get tricky) and it is that much harder to get away with murdering an old tosser like me having elective knee surgery than a premature baby.

*** James Robertson Justice types and it was true. Even now, we laugh that the posse of student doctors/junior doctors that follow consultants on ward rounds are on edge. The BBC comedy series Getting On mocked this well.

Both worldly wise, that’s the Nicky Campbell ‘Lucy Letby’ show after the next. The first will be respectful to the parents of the dead/disabled kids. The next will be a pile-on from TalkTV types with an axe to grind, countered by their usual foes.

 

[ExmouthExile]

Evil bitch! Right up there with hindley and west! She’ll get what’s coming to her!

 

[Algernon]

I absolutely know appearances are deceptive but I can't reconcile the way she looks with what she's done.
I don't expect her to look a certain way and know some people are evidently just evil.
I wonder what maybe went wrong in her head to make her become the thing she is.

 

[jonny.rainbow]

I absolutely know appearances are deceptive but I can't reconcile the way she looks with what she's done.
I don't expect her to look a certain way and know some people are evidently just evil.
I wonder what maybe went wrong in her head to make her become the thing she is.

Whilst no-one will ever truly know unless she admits guilt and opens up, there have been two things covered during this case that might have contributed.

Firstly, she herself was cared for in hospital after difficulties during birth. Secondly, there is evidence of her having a relationship with a married doctor during her time at the hospital. WhatsApp messages between the two were shared in court and she allegedly became emotional when the doctor gave testimony in court.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Whilst no-one will ever truly know unless she admits guilt and opens up, there have been two things covered during this case that might have contributed.

Firstly, she herself was cared for in hospital after difficulties during birth. Secondly, there is evidence of her having a relationship with a married doctor during her time at the hospital. WhatsApp messages between the two were shared in court and she allegedly became emotional when the doctor gave testimony in court.

Conjecture, but the affair seems to be a clue. She got a thrill from secrecy. After killing the babies, she was looking up the families on Facebook, reading their timelines.

 

[birthofanorange]

I have no idea what procedures are involved, but are autopsies routinely performed to establish the cause of death? If so, surely the presence of an unexpected substance would give rise to serious concerns? Isn't that how she was allegedly murdering the poor souls?

 

[Gazwag]

Perhaps they are better at covering up in private hospitals. Albeit private hospitals tend to steer clear of life-threatening issues (and have been known to call 999 when things get tricky) and it is that much harder to get away with murdering an old tosser like me having elective knee surgery than a premature baby.

What a stupid comment, so your suggesting private hospitals are protecting murders. It doesn't take much common sense to realise that a private hospital does not have intensive care unit or an a&e dept so on the extremely rare occasion that issues occur during an operation the best place is itu which is in an NHS hospital hence traveling by ambulance. Nurses who work in private hospitals are highly trained in emergency care but don't have the facilities for long term emergency care and they earn a lot less than like for like nhs nurses.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

What a stupid comment, so your suggesting private hospitals are protecting murders. It doesn't take much common sense to realise that a private hospital does not have intensive care unit or an a&e dept so on the extremely rare occasion that issues occur during an operation the best place is itu which is in an NHS hospital hence traveling by ambulance. Nurses who work in private hospitals are highly trained in emergency care but don't have the facilities for long term emergency care and they earn a lot less than like for like nhs nurses.

For goodness sake. Of course I'm not. I'm saying that because of the preponderance of the nature of the work done in private hospitals there is less scope for taking advantage of vulnerable and at-risk cohorts, like premature babies.

The reason I brought this up was because I object to the trope that vulnerable kids are at more risk of death from crazed medical staff in the NHS because there is something fundamentally wrong with the NHS.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I have no idea what procedures are involved, but are autopsies routinely performed to establish the cause of death? If so, surely the presence of an unexpected substance would give rise to serious concerns? Isn't that how she was allegedly murdering the poor souls?

No. Not unless the death is suspicious.

 

[maffew]

I have no idea what procedures are involved, but are autopsies routinely performed to establish the cause of death? If so, surely the presence of an unexpected substance would give rise to serious concerns? Isn't that how she was allegedly murdering the poor souls?

I understand the first deaths werent treated as suspicious so no autopsy, and the high insulin levels which couldn't have been naturally produced were possibly missed by the labs

 

[birthofanorange]

No. Not unless the death is suspicious.

Numerous babies who were seemingly healthy, right up until the moment they rapidly deteriorated, for no apparent reason, surely should be enough to arouse suspicion. It was certainly enough to make the consultants concerned.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I understand the first deaths werent treated as suspicious so no autopsy, and the high insulin levels which couldn't have been naturally produced were possibly missed by the labs

She used several different methods rather than insulin, including over feeding with milk.

 

[Icy Gull]

What I am really struggling to get my head around is why you would want to kill a new born baby, and even more so to actually do it. It is totally beyond my comprehension to the same level as paedophiles who abuse babies.

f***ed up doesn’t cover it

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I absolutely know appearances are deceptive but I can't reconcile the way she looks with what she's done.
I don't expect her to look a certain way and know some people are evidently just evil.
I wonder what maybe went wrong in her head to make her become the thing she is.

The Disney effect. Evil people are ugly and good people are attractive.

 

[Seagull27]

The thing I find strangest is that 95% of the time, she must have been doing her normal nursing job, i.e. caring for sick babies - and presumably doing it fairly well, considering she had never been disciplined previously.

There were probably even parents who thanked her for caring for their babies, hugged her, gave her cards/presents, as many do in those situations. How sick and conflicted must they be feeling now.

What was it about those particular instances where she decided to harm those babies rather than care for them? Seeing some of the text conversations she had, it almost seemed as if she was looking for sympathy.

The other thing that struck me is that, on the surface, she seemed relatively normal - had friends who she went on nights out with etc. Not like some school shooter whose life was spent in their basement reading internet conspiracies.

 

[banjo]

The thing I find strangest is that 95% of the time, she must have been doing her normal nursing job, i.e. caring for sick babies - and presumably doing it fairly well, considering she had never been disciplined previously.

There were probably even parents who thanked her for caring for their babies, hugged her, gave her cards/presents, as many do in those situations. How sick and conflicted must they be feeling now.

What was it about those particular instances where she decided to harm those babies rather than care for them? Seeing some of the text conversations she had, it almost seemed as if she was looking for sympathy.

The other thing that struck me is that, on the surface, she seemed relatively normal - had friends who she went on nights out with etc. Not like some school shooter whose life was spent in their basement reading internet conspiracies.

There was an interview with one of her friends as part of the Panorama programme last night, she was still in denial that she was capable of her crimes.